Hazard Pay

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KingCountyMedic

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Virus or no virus I think the OP needs to get out of this field. All you do is complain about everything. Go out and find happiness someplace, I don't think EMS is for you. I'm not trying to be an *******, just my own personal observation. Peace.
 

VentMonkey

Family Guy
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I mean, I’m not debating the guy’s passion for the clinical aspects of this job, and not that anyone has. For all I know he is a stellar paramedic.

With that, who brings pebbles, and who brings rocks to the pond— the antagonist or the lobbyist?

I’d say this thread has run its course. He’s a lone ranger in a sea of (what I’d consider) realists.
 
OP
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RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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Y’all seem to enjoy public “service” and lack an instinct for exploiting a situation. Quite nice of you.
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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Sounding a bit ASPD there...
?

Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?
 

Peak

ED/Prehospital Registered Nurse
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?

Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?

There is a difference between working for an advantage and not feeling any compassion towards others and compassion for society.

Out of curiosity what made you first want to be in EMS?
 
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Monday

Forum Probie
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In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?

Cough: Some of us *do* mostly volunteer.

It's not pressing for an advantage if that 'advantage' is tactically untenable.

Right now the global situation is ****, and I rather work toward making it less ****, THEN we can talk about where to get more cash for future pooch screws.

And it's, no jabs intended, very 1st world luxury.
People working 3world usually are used to conditions like this, not only no hazard pay but often no pay, even where private and contractual, quite usually.

YMMV but really, think one should consider the priorities.
Either it's your patients and safety of your team / partners and doing your job or it's not.

No personal or professional disrespect meant. I get we're all tired as hell and calls get worse and the resources aren't there and companies may have internal issues and what not.

So my post is to be read in a calm talking, while buying you all a beer post shift, or something healthier really, voice.
 
OP
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RocketMedic

RocketMedic

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Everyone has their own priorities.
 

NomadicMedic

I know a guy who knows a guy.
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Hate to say it but failure to press for an advantage means you’ll never get it. In fact why not just volunteer since it’s a burden on our communities to pay for us?

You're getting further out into space with every post. I can't believe you actually used the phrase "exploit a situation". What in God's name is wrong with you? People are not working. The economy is going to be in a shambles for a loooong time. We're furloughing our wheelchair van drivers because there are no more routine appointments and our office staff is working 2 days a week because billing is down... and you want to "press for an advantage"?

Exploit a situation? That's the same as price gouging. You make me sick.

I used to just think you were a misunderstood guy that wanted a better system... but now... I don't know. You're on a different plane than the rest of us. We're not doing this job because we like being around contagious people or because we have some altruistic vision of giving up everything to help mankind (Ok, maybe some of us do...) but instead, we're doing a job that many can't or won't.

Because we want to. And need to. Because it's what we believe is right. Because we are healthcare workers. And you don't get to pick and choose who you respond to when you're dispatched.

And ya know what? Even without hazard pay, I'm still going to come into work, put on an N95 and go into the cesspool nursing home that has dozens of potential COVID-19 cases because it's my job. And I'll say it again because you seem to think I've lost touch with the field. I am STILL a credentialed paramedic that responds to ALS calls for service every day. I'm not a desk jockey.
 

FiremanMike

Just a dude
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You're getting further out into space with every post. I can't believe you actually used the phrase "exploit a situation". What in God's name is wrong with you? People are not working. The economy is going to be in a shambles for a loooong time. We're furloughing our wheelchair van drivers because there are no more routine appointments and our office staff is working 2 days a week because billing is down... and you want to "press for an advantage"?

Exploit a situation? That's the same as price gouging. You make me sick.

I used to just think you were a misunderstood guy that wanted a better system... but now... I don't know. You're on a different plane than the rest of us. We're not doing this job because we like being around contagious people or because we have some altruistic vision of giving up everything to help mankind (Ok, maybe some of us do...) but instead, we're doing a job that many can't or won't.

Because we want to. And need to. Because it's what we believe is right. Because we are healthcare workers. And you don't get to pick and choose who you respond to when you're dispatched.

And ya know what? Even without hazard pay, I'm still going to come into work, put on an N95 and go into the cesspool nursing home that has dozens of potential COVID-19 cases because it's my job. And I'll say it again because you seem to think I've lost touch with the field. I am STILL a credentialed paramedic that responds to ALS calls for service every day. I'm not a desk jockey.

1,000% agree
 

NomadicMedic

I know a guy who knows a guy.
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You have no idea about how we treat our employees or how my system functions. All you know is your own twisted self absorbed version of reality.

I am 100% done with you.
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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You have no idea about how we treat our employees or how my system functions. All you know is your own twisted self absorbed version of reality.

I am 100% done with you.

If it’s anything like you behave on here, I reckon it must be as epic as the BEF circa 1915. “We value our people”?
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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Sooooo.....have you quit your job yet?

At this point you almost have too.

I enjoy my job, precisely because I am largely free of folks who attempt to downplay hazards. With that being said, if this job starts to pose a significant threat to my health, or stops being enjoyable, I’m out and off to a better opportunity.
I also personally think you’re a crew of whimsical blowhards on the Internet and put no weight at all behind most of what y’all say, so there’s that.
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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You know, I’m going to get real here. None of you know what actual extraordinary risk is. You go to work, same as we all do, and accept “normal” risks, like crashes and maybe getting sick. And I get it. I really do. I do the same thing. Yes, I could die or be seriously ill or injured as a result of my work in EMS, same as any other job. But there is no oath, no solemn vow, and no certainty to those fears. It’s a job. A job that pretty much universally treats you as an ultimately-replaceable cog in the greater system. And because it’s fun, rewarding and generally meaningful, I keep doing it. Same as y’all. And there’s hazards encountered in that. Storms. Floods. Fires. Violence. Fatigue. Part of the job, I agree. No one asked me to wade into floodwater to go get Grandma out, and I willingly accepted that risk without a second thought because we had an OK plan and could pull it off relatively safely. I accept the risk involved in routine EMS.

But then “different” hazards show up. Coronavirus, for starters. Dangerous, frequent and potentially lethal. It’s not the flu, and “leaders” like Sir Douglas Haig and some of y’all draw false equivalence to routine risks and claim it’s all “part of the job”. Guess what, it’s not. There is no oath or affirmation or obligation to put oneself in danger to perform as a paramedic, and yet, we’re putting ourselves in extraordinary danger every day, without adequate protective systems, training, equipment or even plans, and relying on hope and inadequate PPE. And we know it’s inadequate because our Chinese and Italian and now American brothers and sisters have died and are dying of this virus and there’s an excellent chance they were exposed while working as we do with the same inadequate training and equipment and systems. So that’s bad. In the military, peculiar hazards that cannot be entirely or effectively mitigated are compensated for by hazard pay, by a solemn commitment to care for the veteran and lifetime disability compensation, and by a large check and honors if they die. And it’s barely enough. But it’s way, way more than any of our employers offer. Would any EMS employer pay 100% of someone’s highest income for the rest of their life, tax-free, if they’re injured and disabled? Disability compensation? I doubt it.

And what do you do? “Oh, it’s your job, be glad you have one?” You know what? Most Americans are about to get some pretty substantial welfare and debt cancellation and will grit their way through this and they’ll promptly forget public service in general and us in particular when it’s over. And our industry will continue to spend as little as possible because people like you will take a sense of “duty” as the extra $10 an hour we should be getting.
Clearly you’re more altruistic and better people than I am, but I think that if a community wants me to risk my life to help them in their hour of need, they ought to pay appropriately for it and to a degree that compensates for the danger of that work. That you argue against that is baffling to me. And yes, I’m angry at you, because you want all of the noble trappings of good and righteous and honorable organizations and a profession while paying lip service at best to the solemn and costly obligations underlying those traditions, and you undermine the entire case for developing such a culture of responsibility by offering to provide EMS for costs so low people never have to think about it because “it’s not their problem”.

You don’t want to pay hazard pay? Fine, show us your isolation suits, full-face self-contained respirators and cleaning solutions that decon the whole truck. Show us the robust, meaningful support and rehabilitation system there to make injured employees whole. Show us the compensation scheme to ensure someone’s family is taken care of adequately to begin to let yourself believe you did the best you could as a leader to make their loved ones sacrifice worthwhile. But until that’s there, I think it’s appropriate to at least consider paying someone more than $9 an hour to respond to EMS calls in the middle of a pandemic.
But that’s hard and people like Easy. Beating their chests about warm zones and active shooters and how smart and cool they are. Woo. Color me impressed.

And yeah, I am jaded. I’m also a better paramedic than most of you and don’t really have an abundance of concern for what random Internet dudes think. And I have no desire to fly, to work for some podunk little EMS service that pays its people poorly, or to sink into the mediocrity that some of y’all clearly think is the best thing ever.
 

Peak

ED/Prehospital Registered Nurse
1,023
604
113
You know, I’m going to get real here. None of you know what actual extraordinary risk is. You go to work, same as we all do, and accept “normal” risks, like crashes and maybe getting sick. And I get it. I really do. I do the same thing. Yes, I could die or be seriously ill or injured as a result of my work in EMS, same as any other job. But there is no oath, no solemn vow, and no certainty to those fears. It’s a job. A job that pretty much universally treats you as an ultimately-replaceable cog in the greater system. And because it’s fun, rewarding and generally meaningful, I keep doing it. Same as y’all. And there’s hazards encountered in that. Storms. Floods. Fires. Violence. Fatigue. Part of the job, I agree. No one asked me to wade into floodwater to go get Grandma out, and I willingly accepted that risk without a second thought because we had an OK plan and could pull it off relatively safely. I accept the risk involved in routine EMS.

But then “different” hazards show up. Coronavirus, for starters. Dangerous, frequent and potentially lethal. It’s not the flu, and “leaders” like Sir Douglas Haig and some of y’all draw false equivalence to routine risks and claim it’s all “part of the job”. Guess what, it’s not. There is no oath or affirmation or obligation to put oneself in danger to perform as a paramedic, and yet, we’re putting ourselves in extraordinary danger every day, without adequate protective systems, training, equipment or even plans, and relying on hope and inadequate PPE. And we know it’s inadequate because our Chinese and Italian and now American brothers and sisters have died and are dying of this virus and there’s an excellent chance they were exposed while working as we do with the same inadequate training and equipment and systems. So that’s bad. In the military, peculiar hazards that cannot be entirely or effectively mitigated are compensated for by hazard pay, by a solemn commitment to care for the veteran and lifetime disability compensation, and by a large check and honors if they die. And it’s barely enough. But it’s way, way more than any of our employers offer. Would any EMS employer pay 100% of someone’s highest income for the rest of their life, tax-free, if they’re injured and disabled? Disability compensation? I doubt it.

And what do you do? “Oh, it’s your job, be glad you have one?” You know what? Most Americans are about to get some pretty substantial welfare and debt cancellation and will grit their way through this and they’ll promptly forget public service in general and us in particular when it’s over. And our industry will continue to spend as little as possible because people like you will take a sense of “duty” as the extra $10 an hour we should be getting.
Clearly you’re more altruistic and better people than I am, but I think that if a community wants me to risk my life to help them in their hour of need, they ought to pay appropriately for it and to a degree that compensates for the danger of that work. That you argue against that is baffling to me. And yes, I’m angry at you, because you want all of the noble trappings of good and righteous and honorable organizations and a profession while paying lip service at best to the solemn and costly obligations underlying those traditions, and you undermine the entire case for developing such a culture of responsibility by offering to provide EMS for costs so low people never have to think about it because “it’s not their problem”.

You don’t want to pay hazard pay? Fine, show us your isolation suits, full-face self-contained respirators and cleaning solutions that decon the whole truck. Show us the robust, meaningful support and rehabilitation system there to make injured employees whole. Show us the compensation scheme to ensure someone’s family is taken care of adequately to begin to let yourself believe you did the best you could as a leader to make their loved ones sacrifice worthwhile. But until that’s there, I think it’s appropriate to at least consider paying someone more than $9 an hour to respond to EMS calls in the middle of a pandemic.
But that’s hard and people like Easy. Beating their chests about warm zones and active shooters and how smart and cool they are. Woo. Color me impressed.

And yeah, I am jaded. I’m also a better paramedic than most of you and don’t really have an abundance of concern for what random Internet dudes think. And I have no desire to fly, to work for some podunk little EMS service that pays its people poorly, or to sink into the mediocrity that some of y’all clearly think is the best thing ever.

As an honest question, before November did you every advocate for better PPE on the ambulance? Did you ever search out that knowledge on your own? Did you do anything to promote better protection from disease in the EMS line of work?
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
4,997
1,461
113
As an honest question, before November did you every advocate for better PPE on the ambulance? Did you ever search out that knowledge on your own? Did you do anything to promote better protection from disease in the EMS line of work?
Yes, and I was ignored. I brought it up as early as January, and I’ve previously brought it up. I’ve even been written up for taking “too long to clean the truck” before and refusing to put a dirty one in service without proper cleaning. I’ve always been a bit of a clean freak and safety guy. But “gloves are enough”.
 
OP
OP
RocketMedic

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
4,997
1,461
113
Finally, I’d like to point out that the anti-Rocket crowd can’t even articulate what reasonable thresholds for hazard pay, parameters for that pay or objectives for hazard pay would be. They just knee-jerk to their ideological corners. And that is why I never want to work for or with them- they lack the ability to conceptualize anything outside of their familiarity and comfort.
 
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