Gun Scenario

[firecoins]

You and your partner are called to a 4th floor apartment in an elevator building for the diff. breather. This neighborhood is referred to as the ghetto. You arrive at the building with no signs of PD or any other first responder on scene. Your partner and you gather your bags and a stair chair and head up to the apartment on the 4th floor.

You enter the apartment. An older man and woman stand in the living room. The woman complains of abdominal pain with some S.O.B. She wants to go to the hospital. She yells at her husband to get her coat.

2 children are sleeping on beds on the uncarpeted floor oddly undisturbed by the commotion going on. They have been through this before. Nothing unusual for them.

The man iseems quite but aggitated. His aggitation grows as his wife a.k.a the patient yells for coat. The wife and husband banter back and fourth. Outright yelling breaks out. The man grabs a baseball bat and start to swing at his wife and at you and your partner.

As his swings get closer, you draw you concealed weapon and warn the husband. The gun aggitates him further. Your forced to shoot. You wound him but don't kill him. Police arrive. A 2nd bus arrives. Both patients are transported and investigation is launched.

Is the shooting justified?

Does the EMT/Medic face criminal liability?

Personal liability (lawsuits)?

Professional liability(job loss, certification loss)?

Should EMS have entered the scene without police?

Should EMS have left the scene after it became unsafe and waited for police?

Thooughts?

 

[ffemt8978]

Moved to Scenarios forum.

 

[Akulahawk]

Interesting, but well hashed scenario (on other forums). My answers assume the following: that you're in legal possession of the firearm and that you are legally carrying it (not illegal to have while on ambulance or in an otherwise prohibited area). Company Policy is not the law. I'll answer in red...

You and your partner are called to a 4th floor apartment in an elevator building for the diff. breather. This neighborhood is referred to as the ghetto. You arrive at the building with no signs of PD or any other first responder on scene. Your partner and you gather your bags and a stair chair and head up to the apartment on the 4th floor.

You enter the apartment. An older man and woman stand in the living room. The woman complains of abdominal pain with some S.O.B. She wants to go to the hospital. She yells at her husband to get her coat.

2 children are sleeping on beds on the uncarpeted floor oddly undisturbed by the commotion going on. They have been through this before. Nothing unusual for them.

The man seems quite but agitated. His agitation grows as his wife a.k.a the patient yells for coat. The wife and husband banter back and fourth. Outright yelling breaks out. The man grabs a baseball bat and start to swing at his wife and at you and your partner.

As his swings get closer, you draw you concealed weapon and warn the husband. The gun agitates him further. Your forced to shoot. You wound him but don't kill him. Police arrive. A 2nd bus arrives. Both patients are transported and investigation is launched.

Is the shooting justified? As presented? Yes. The guy is swinging the bat and advancing on you. Baseball bats can present as lethal a threat as a firearm or a knife. If he's within 21 feet, swinging the bat in a threatening manner, and I feel he's a threat to me or my partner, I'm going to consider shooting to stop that threat. (Yes, I have some LE training in this.)

Does the EMT/Medic face criminal liability? Justified shoot? None.

Personal liability (lawsuits)? Depends upon the state. California? Yes, expect it. Some other states do not allow for civil suits from the person shot (or on their behalf) if the shoot is justified.

Professional liability(job loss, certification loss)? Loss of job? Depends upon company policy. Cert/License loss? No. Justified shoot = no criminal wrongdoing. There'd be nothing actionable by the certifying entity. There will likely be some "bad" press about the incident though.

Should EMS have entered the scene without police? for abdominal pain and no initial indication of violence? Yes. Or you can simply stage, and ask for LE assistance on EVERY call you go to, on the premise that every call could end up like this scenario.

Should EMS have left the scene after it became unsafe and waited for police? Yes. Even if you're carrying a firearm, if you're not LE, your likely best option is to back out, call for LE (code 3) and wait for them to clear the scene for you. Another option is you can stay, try to reason with him, and hope you don't get bludgeoned to death.

Thoughts?

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

First, let me say that this is not gonna end well, but here I go...

Is the shooting justified?

If there is a situation where my life is seriously threatened and I have a legit fear for my life then I will do everything to stop that threat. If I had a gun, then that might be on my list of ways to accomplish this effectively… however, despite the fact that I am pro (responsible) gun (owners), I do not have a gun nor would I ever carry a gun while working pure EMS. But, yes, based on the scenerio it probably is justified considering that your life and your partners life were about to end. However, consider that a cop would also have considered less than lethal means (OC, tazer, asp, etc…), so if we as EMTs/Medics are gonna carry guns then shouldn’t we also be carrying nonlethal defensive measures which would be used first, just like LEOs? Also, was it possible to flee the scene without pulling the gun? It still stands: We are not LEOs and unless we are going to act just as they would in the same capacity, then we should not half-azz it and just carry a gun with the thinking that "if I get into serious trouble I start shooting." Responsible cops don't think that way... but by only carrying a gun, you are setting yourself up to behave that way...

Does the EMT/Medic face criminal liability?

I don't belive so. But the case will doubtlessly be investigated and depending on the state (like CA), possibly… I am no lawyer (thank god), but I think that the law/investigation would probably revolve more around the issues of if you should have been carrying in the first place, if you should have been in that situation, and if you had other options. But, more than likely, it is justified and no criminal charges would be filled...

Personal liability (lawsuits)?

Will you get sued? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha… Hell ya… Will they win? Probably not… but does it matter? You are screwed because you will have to spend time, energy, money defending yourself…

Professional liability(job loss, certification loss)?

Probably… In my case, when I was working Ambulance, yes… the company had a policy of no weapons carried by the crew or in the ambulance... No guns, no cameras, no alcohol, to porno, no smoking… so I have no doubt I would be canned. On a SAR call, as I have said before, I am allowed to carry, but rarely respond to the “ghetto” for Searches or Rescues… LOL… Can you lose a Paramedic License? Dunno, maybe; but a license is usually harder to lose than, let’s say, an EMT Certification. Whether or not it was justified in the eyes for everyone else, an EMSA could (and might) pull certification just to CYA if you were to end up on the front page of the paper in a year’s time after going on a shooting rampage…

Should EMS have entered the scene without police?

Yes… unless there is a policy that EMS/Fire doesn’t enter this area or a particular home without LEOs. For instance, we had a section of town where I was working where EMS and Fire was not allowed to enter at night without LEO securing the scene first. The reason was entirely gang related. EMS/Fire staged outside the south side of the city for those calls… But if your decisions (in lieu of such a policy) are based on the neighborhood and your personal feelings about the types of people that might live in these areas… then we have problems… EMS does not need LE for every call and there was no indication in this scenario (other than a sketchy part of town) that staging was needed…

Should EMS have left the scene after it became unsafe and waited for police?

Yes… First Responsibility is to your own safety… Second Responsibility is to your partner’s safety… Third Responsibility is to other responder’s safety… Fourth Responsibility is to bystander’s safety (the kids in the apartment)… and your Last Responsibility is to the Patient… So, yes, textbook: EMS should have backed out if possible, others in the room be damned… in real life, not so easy to say as you are leaving those kids and the pt. behind…

Thoughts?

Just one more series of questions to add… After emptying you gun into this subject… do you then treat him? Do you treat him first as his wounds (triage-wise) probably are more severe than the woman’s? Do you now back out of the scene thinking that maybe other “less then upstanding” people in the complex might make an appearance?

 

[DV_EMT]

everything akulahawk said... would be my exact response. So no need to double post it

 

[firecoins]

You can assume that you have the gun legally. Do not assume the company is backing you carrying it.

Your protocols says not to eneter a safe scene however the scene appears to be safe. It escalates after you arrive. You are uninhibited from leaving the scene at any point.

 

[spisco85]

If you have the ability to leave the scene than you leave the scene. Even in home defense shootings in certain states if you have a way out you have to take it.

 

[lightsandsirens5]

As his swings get closer, you draw you concealed weapon and warn the husband. The gun aggitates him further. Your forced to shoot. You wound him but don't kill him. Police arrive. A 2nd bus arrives. Both patients are transported and investigation is launched.

Are you allowed to carry while on duty? Because, at my service at least, the possesion of a firearm anywhere on your body at any time during your 12 hours is grounds for immidiate and perminate seperation from the service. Stupid IMHO, but, oh well.....

Is the shooting justified?

Yes. His very act of picking up the bat could be called assult with a deadly weapon. And not only do you need to be concerned about your own safety and your partners safety, but also the pts. The pt is just as much a citizen as you or your partner and if there is a life threat to that person, you are authorized to stop it. Although how you came up with the gun, in my area, would not be.

Does the EMT/Medic face criminal liability?

In this case, no. Although....well, see my last two answers
Personal liability (lawsuits)?

Professional liability(job loss, certification loss)?

In this case, No. Lawsuits? :censored::censored::censored::censored: right. But liability, no sane judge with any morals would rule against a "justified" shooting.

Should EMS have entered the scene without police?

Depends, with hindsight being, in my opinion, better that 20/20, it is easy to say no. However, nothing in the OPs scenario indicates that it might be scene unsafe. Unless you count the very location as unsafe. But then every EMS call in the inter-city would need LE.

Should EMS have left the scene after it became unsafe and waited for police?

Ideally, yes. But it dosen't sound like they really had time from the appearance of the bat to the shooting.

Thooughts?

As I have been going on about, we cannot carry at all while on. How many of you can carry while on duty?

 

[lightsandsirens5]

If you have the ability to leave the scene than you leave the scene. Even in home defense shootings in certain states if you have a way out you have to take it.

Not if you can safely stop an assult and battery with a deadly weapon. If you have an incapacitated family member and you are standing in the back doorway, you don't need to escape. Plug the guy! it is the same with a pt. Or any other citizen for that matter. I would say that if you can ssafely stop a beating or murder, by all means, have at! If he has a baseball bat, which falls well into the catagory of deadly weapons, use a deadly weapon of your own. If it is a gun, so be it. (And all the more safe it is for you.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh and I have to add, even though it is totally un-related. This is post number 800 for me.......that is all.

 

[Akulahawk]

You can assume that you have the gun legally. Do not assume the company is backing you carrying it.

In my experience, most won't, even if it's legal for YOU to do so. They're generally afraid that they'll get into a civil suit because you're their employee, if they explicitly authorized carrying of weapons.

Your protocols says not to enter a safe scene however the scene appears to be safe. It escalates after you arrive. You are uninhibited from leaving the scene at any point.

As a non-LEO, I'd default to doing that, if it's the safest course of action, especially if I'm unarmed.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Even in home defense shootings in certain states if you have a way out you have to take it.

There is actually an interesting law in my county along those lines that dates back over 100 years and has never been changed:

If someone illegally enters your home/property with the intent to harm you, you catch them, they attempt to flee, and you shoot them (in the back obviously), then your actions will be judged based upon one factor:

Are you Male or Female?

If you are Male, then there was no reason for you to shoot this person since you had caught them red handed, they fled, and the threat to yourself no longer existed.

If you are Female, then you are legally justified in shooting him in the back since you can not be sure that the subject will not return and since you are (or at least were viewed as such in the 1800's) a Woman and weaker, you have reason to believe he might return and that you will be unable to drive him off the second time...

A bit sexist in my opinion, but apparently it is legal in my county for women to shoot men in the back... LOL ^_^

 

[lightsandsirens5]

A bit sexist in my opinion, but apparently it is legal in my county for women to shoot men in the back... LOL ^_^

Isn't it the general opinion that they do anyway regardless of what the laws might say? (Maybe not physically, but still...............)

 

[VentMedic]

As his swings get closer, you draw you concealed weapon and warn the husband. The gun aggitates him further. Your forced to shoot. You wound him but don't kill him.

Was it your intent to "just wound" the person? The law is a tricky matter and if you felt your life was not in enough danger and that you just aimed to wound, things will probably not go in your favor. You must fear for your life or that of someone close to you to justify the use of the use of deadly force but if you decided your intent was just to "slow the person down" then there will be a doubt that you thought your life was in serious danger.

LEOs don't practice aiming for the hand as shown in the movies. They practice kill shots that will stop, not slow a person. If they want to slow a person down, they have other means to do that. Maybe that is what should be considered in EMS and not a weapon that can end your career and put you in prison for a few years.

Also in this situation it can be argued that you escalated the scene with your gun. Again, the other person's attorney may gain the advantage here if it is found you had a way to remove yourself to a safe distance.

 

[firecoins]

Was it your intent to "just wound" the person?

Assune you are very nervous as one might be in such a situation. You aimed to kill but just wounded him.

 

[firecoins]

Are you allowed to carry while on duty? Because, at my service at least, the possesion of a firearm anywhere on your body at any time during your 12 hours is grounds for immidiate and perminate seperation from the service. Stupid IMHO, but, oh well.....

As I mention the company has not authorized you to carry. Your protocols require you to leave if you can and leaving was a possibility.

 

[VentMedic]

Assune you are very nervous as one might be in such a situation. You aimed to kill but just wounded him.

Hence the word "intent".

The first words out of your mouth in ear shot of others and the statements you give will form your "intent".

"I didn't mean to kill him".

"I didn't want to kill him but just slow him down".

"I wanted to STOP him".

All of these statements can be up for interpretation.

 

[reaper]

"I wanted to stop him"

That is what you say. You have chosen to use deadly force. You do not shoot to wound, you shoot to kill. You want to stop the threat.

Anything else and you will be wrapped up in investigations forever!

 

[triemal04]

"I wanted to stop him"

That is what you say. You have chosen to use deadly force. You do not shoot to wound, you shoot to kill. You want to stop the threat.

Anything else and you will be wrapped up in investigations forever!

Amen. Saying that you tried to wound him could be potentially as bad as saying that you tried to kill him; might matter more in a civil trial, but either is bad, and not what you want to do, which is to eliminate the threat. Doesn't matter if you shoot him in the head or the leg and he drops the bat and lays on the floor; the threat is gone and so is the need for deadly force.

The OP didn't mention it, but this would be the perfect example of why most self-defense statuettes contain the phrase "in defense of others." Even if the attacker was not blocking the exit, the shooting would still be justifiable in that there were 2 children and a woman (who was already being attacked) in the apartment who couldn't leave.

 

[MrBrown]

Who traditionally shoots people with weapons? The Police.

Lets leave it that way.

 

[medichopeful]

Is the shooting justified?

(For the sake of my answers [unless noted], I'm going to assume that the EMT was highly trained with weapons, was allowed to carry by his agency, and was authorized to use force if necessary by his agency. But note, I do not think that EMTs should be carrying firearms on duty)

Yes, the shooting is justified. The EMT had reason to believe that the life of the patient was in danger.

Does the EMT/Medic face criminal liability?

If everything I said in the beginning is true, than no.

Personal liability (lawsuits)?

This is the United States. That is always a very distinct possibility.

Professional liability(job loss, certification loss)?

If the shooting was found to be justified after an extensive investigation involving LE agencies, than he should be fine.

Should EMS have entered the scene without police?

If they had reasonable suspicion to believe that something could happen, than no, they should have waited outside. This could include the type of neighborhood or other signs.

Should EMS have left the scene after it became unsafe and waited for police?

This is where it becomes tricky. If the EMTs were armed, and had authorization to use deadly force, than no. But note, that is only if they were authorized to, in a way, be auxiliary LE. If they were only authorized to use the weapon for self-defense, than yes. They should have left immediately.

Thooughts?

I think this really demonstrates the reason EMTs should not be carrying weapons. It puts them into a position they should not be in: that of a LEO. I'm sorry, but I have a major problem with an EMT carrying a weapon (or anyone in the healthcare field carrying weapons, except for a very select few). Remember, the Hippocratic Oath says "First, do no harm." By carrying weapons, it makes it very easy to violate that first rule. I think that this scenario demonstrates that.

Stay safe out there.