Getting more people in EMS a degree, a different idea

[ExpatMedic0]

After speaking with some medics who hold EMS specific degree's in other countries I became aware of a couple things.
1. Many of these Paramedics are giving "recognition of prior learning" This means, work experience is turned into college credit. Often after "challenging" the test for the same EMS course work a entry level EMS degree student would be required to take classes in.
2. Many countries higher education systems (especially for health care) is radically different than ours and relies more on hands on training, internships, and even vocational type "on the job training."
Not just for EMS but for education as a whole.
3. Many countries bachelors degree's are 3 years, instead of 4 years. Normally this extra year in the U.S. is upper level liberal art/humanities core we call "general education requirements" for a bachelors degree.

It also came to my attention a lot of my co-workers over the years, a long with people on this forum, are a lot smarter than the entry level NREMT requirements. Many providers who hold no college degree are sometimes more knowledgeable of EMS and the world, than their college graduate colleagues.

So I can't help but wonder...

Should we be rethinking the way to educate people in EMS and providing more, easier, cheaper, ways for them to complete a degree.... Such as "recognition of prior learning" and a 3 year bachelors degree?

Also, as many of you know I am completing a U.S. EMS degree, and this semester I have a course "Educational Methodologies in EMS" so it sparked my interest to reach out to you for feedback regarding this.

 

[Veneficus]

I think the US higher education system and its focus need to be overhauled. I have seen an article recently that some colleges are "restructuring" to something called a learning block rather than "majors."

One of the things I have noticed having attended higher education in the US and Europe, is that the US model assumes everyone can make use of a broad based education as well as market it.

It is basically trying to "create" people like Leonardo or other "Renaissance man"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_man

Probably from a cultural bias of believing all people are created equal so they all have equal potenital.

In recent times, the villification of such "outstanding" individuals in the US further reinforces the concept that anyone can do anything.

I will never be a great (or even mediocre) mathematician. I am cool with that, I marvel at people who are.

I can't draw to save my life, I am also cool with that. I have great appreciation for people who can.

But my education and personal history are not narrowly defined. From firefighter, to EMT training, to business consulting, to doing dishes in an eatery, to working at a bike shop, I am certainly not defined or limited to one specific profession or vocation. I expect to be a student of some kind for life and may add one or two more degrees or titles as I go, we'll see.

But European education is much more focused on a single vocation/profession. For example, in my physics class in med school, I was taught physics that directly applied to medicine. I could probably build a scintography machine or an xray. I can tell you how chrystal structures are used and how they work in relation to ultrasound or those color changing thermometers. Not only that, I can tell you the importance of Bernoulli's law in a bed confined or ambultory patient. (and I use that information almost everyday) The list goes on.

But the gist is it is profession specific education. I didn't spend a whole lot of time calculating acceleration. I think one class of the whole semester and it wasn't even on the final.

The same was done with all the basic sciences I was forced to repeat. (not by choice, but I got a lot of benefit out of being told specifically how and what applies to medicine)

But at the same time, if you ask one of my native classmates about history, or philosophy, sociology, or anthropology, on the best day they will for some reason have a personal interest ad may be able to talk about them.

It is not a "well-rounded" education that is better. It is the ability of the individual to make use of a broad knowledge.

According to the Neuroscientist Ledoux, not everyone can do it. Sadly, we all are not equal, nor do we have equal potential.

But it doesn't mean any given person cannot have value in society.

The goal of US education is admirable, but not possible.

As education, particularly higher education, iseconomically out of reach of more and more Americans, I think that US education will have to abandon its "broad based" ideals. Not out of the reality that it is useless to many who cannot actually use or even identify the use of such diverse information, but out of the fact that people will only be paying for education that has a tangible benefit to their immediate employ or career goal.

As such I think you will see a shift more towards the European model in the very near future.

 

[Veneficus]

Also if you notice, the US fire service has used the model you described to great effect in getting degrees for its members.

I several times suggested such a model for EMS. It is proven to work, why reinvent something that works?

 

[Carlos Danger]

1. Many of these Paramedics are giving "recognition of prior learning" This means, work experience is turned into college credit. Often after "challenging" the test for the same EMS course work a entry level EMS degree student would be required to take classes in.

This has been the trend for quite some time now.

When I did my first degree (AAS in Emergency Medical Services), I had about 20 credits awarded for experience I gained in the military, after the school evaluated my military record. I had taken CLEP exams for lower level English and Psych, so I didn't have to take those.

For my second degree (AS in Nursing), I did the Excelsior program. Got credits for my paramedic experience and didn't have to do clinical because of my background.

For my third degree (BSN), I did an accelerated evening program designed for working RN's. I was awarded credit for some of the teaching I'd done and certifications I'd earned (NREMT-P, CCRN, CFRN, FP-C, etc).

As education, particularly higher education, iseconomically out of reach of more and more Americans,

This is directly and almost solely a result of federal government intervention in the higher education market (student loans, specifically).

I think there is a lot of evidence that the cost of education will stop increasing if and when the feds stop controlling the student loan market and constantly increasing the amount of student loan money available to schools.

I
It is not a "well-rounded" education that is better. It is the ability of the individual to make use of a broad knowledge.

According to the Neuroscientist Ledoux, not everyone can do it. Sadly, we all are not equal, nor do we have equal potential.

But it doesn't mean any given person cannot have value in society.

The goal of US education is admirable, but not possible.

"There is all the difference in the world between treating people equally, and attempting to make them equal." -Hayek

 

[sir.shocksalot]

I think anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell that the US education system is a mess. I think there is some credence that the government is inflating costs with loans and grants, but I think the problem is a little more multifaceted than that. Overall, the higher education system has lost sight of what their true purpose on this planet is, namely educating young adults to be member of the skilled workforce. Gone are the days that a BS in English will get you a decent middle class job by virtue of a degree and higher ed needs to change to meet that reality. But... I digress.

Schulz, I'm not sure if by degree you are including Associates (often known internationally as a diploma) or just a BS degree? If we mean associates I think the real issue is EMS provider apathy and the lack of a perceived benefit. An AAS is really not a stretch to earn, usually it's a semester of more classes. The bigger issue is that it really doesn't do much for your career because most people in EMS don't really see much benefit of education. I don't think there is an easy fix for the culture of EMS other than a persistent few increasing paramedic requirements at a national level.

For BS degrees? I really don't think there is much of a market for the before mentioned reasons regarding an AAS. I do think recognition for prior learning and making it a more practical 3 year degree will make a BS infinitely more obtainable. I would go for a BS in EMS if they would 1) recognize my AAS for at least 1/2 the credits, 2) if most of the classes were of practical benefit, and 3) if I could do a decent portion online.

I think the big issues are largely a perceived lack of benefit and the inclusion of a large number of irrelevant classes in a BS degree. Now excuse me while I go study ancient Greek history so I can eventually work as an RN.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Schulz, I'm not sure if by degree you are including Associates (often known internationally as a diploma) or just a BS degree?

Ya sure, I actually think some of the AAS degree's take almost as long as a bachelor. My friends AAS Paramedic took 2.5 year, a
lot of international bachelors degrees are 3 years. No one seems to know what an associates degree is in say,Denmark, or even all of Scandinavia for example. The lowest level education degree after high school is a bachelor from either a university or "professional college"

I get whats your saying, especially for an AAS, a lot of medics are only 1 semester away from it.... The questions is "whats in it for them"

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Excuse the typos above.

I just find the more Paramedics I meet and speak with from all over the world, the more I wonder why our education and salary are not advancing the same way in the USA and how can we improve this. Could it be the way our healthcare system and reimbursement is? Could it be the Fire service or Private ambulance holding things back, could it simply be the cost of getting a degree would never pay off(financially) for a Paramedic in the USA, even if it became mandatory.

However, I think my main idea for this post is, maybe its time we use some unconventional methods to help get our EMS providers some kind of a degree. My hypothesis would be that this could bring higher quality life for providers, and patients a like. Perhaps increase our salary, reducing the number of Ricky rescue "zero to hero" courses, but really increase our entire profession, like the rest of the world has already done. As stated, my recent interest in this came to light because I just started an EMS Education Methodologies class at the university, which I am pretty excited about.

Also, just to put something in perspective... I was considering returning to the aussie company I use to work for... They told me since I left the company they now require a certain number of Paramedics to hold a bachelors degree, and eventually everyone will be required to hold one. I applied for another international job with a Canadian company, first thing they asked on the phone was "do you have a degree?"

 

[Carlos Danger]

I think there is some credence that the government is inflating costs with loans and grants, but I think the problem is a little more multifaceted than that.

It's been proven that increases in tuition and college spending closely follow federal student loan availability. Colleges charge what they know kids can get loans for, not much more and not much less. Federal increases in student loan availability are always followed by corresponding increases in tuition and college spending. And those increases in college spending usually don't go to improve the quality of education.

The best way to get a handle on this is to simply get rid of the federal student loan programs and let private lenders loan money at market rates. That would do a lot to limit the ever-soaring increase in SL$ availability and with it, the constant increases in tuition.

the higher education system has lost sight of what their true purpose on this planet is, namely educating young adults to be member of the skilled workforce. Gone are the days that a BS in English will get you a decent middle class job by virtue of a degree and higher ed needs to change to meet that reality. But... I digress.

The "true purpose" of the higher education system is, like every other service, to give it's customers (students) what they want.

If students keep lining up to register for programs that will cause them to go massively in debt for degrees that won't allow them to earn enough money to even pay back their student loans, then that is the fault of the students.

There is a lot of effort at all levels of education to streamline higher education and make it a better value. Almost anyone can take advantage of it. No one is forced to go to an expensive, traditional 4-year baccalaureate program.

Just saw an article somewhere the other day that said that college enrollment has fallen pretty sharply recently. Maybe people are finally waking up to the fact that the traditional model isn't worth what it costs these days.

Now excuse me while I go study ancient Greek history so I can eventually work as an RN.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I think some of that liberal arts stuff is important.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that many of the problems in our society are at least tangentially related to a growing (and already severe in some cultures) lack of literacy in basic reasoning, history, and civics.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I think some of that liberal arts stuff is important.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that many of the problems in our society are at least tangentially related to a growing (and already severe in some cultures) lack of literacy in basic reasoning, history, and civics.

While I agree with you, it does feel silly to be taking some of this stuff. My major is Paramedicine for the BS degree but right now I am taking Philosophy and the sciences in antiquity, in the middle ages and renaissance, along with cultural anthropology. Maybe this is simply a sign that our public school system has failed and that high school students should be the ones achieving liberal arts core goals before university. Or a sign that the colleges are trying to make money. People laugh at me in Europe when I tell them I have to take these classes as a Paramedic. The Aussie Paramedics I use to work with would make fun of me, lol. If you get a Bachelors in Europe or Australia, in say Paramedicine (but it could be any non humanities field) You take classes pertaining to your degree and profession.

With all that said, I find a lot of the humanities, social sciences, and liberal arts interesting. In fact it inspired me to declare a minor in Sociology, which helps break up the monotony, for me.

 

[Carlos Danger]

With all that said, I find a lot of the humanities, social sciences, and liberal arts interesting. In fact it inspired me to declare a major in Sociology, which helps break up the monotony, for me.

Cool. Sociology is good stuff. As long as you don't try to make a living at it, lol.

The knowledge you gain from taking the courses that you need for that major will, IMO, seriously make you a more well-rounded person, better able to understand the larger world, to reason, and to communicate ideas.

I think learning history and civics, and learning to analyze and reason are absolutely critical, and no one learns that basic stuff anymore. Schools don't even teach it. Schools are still spending hundreds of hours teaching cursive and trigonometry and how to play the recorder, when something like 60% of high school grads read at the 8th grade level, and some with college degrees seriously don't even understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. They can't name a founding father, tell you how many branches of government there are, tell you who Edgar Allan Poe or Winston Churchill was, or what continent WWI was primarily fought on. They think Che Guevera was a rock star from the 60's and that Mao Zedong and Pol Pot are chinese dishes. Some people who live in the US will tell you that Canada is in Europe. I have a teenage daughter and some of her friends seriously don't understand that you can't take more money out of your checking account than you have put into it. In order to explain it, I had to use their gas tank as analogy; the fact that you'll run out of gas if you don't add as much to your tank as you burn. Nevermind addressing slightly more abstract concepts such as what a natural right is vs. a government entitlement, what capitalism is, or how our monetary system works.

And these people vote, both in our democratic elections and in the marketplace, with their money.

Oy. This got me a little fired up. Time for a drink.

 

[EpiEMS]

As education, particularly higher education, iseconomically out of reach of more and more Americans, I think that US education will have to abandon its "broad based" ideals. Not out of the reality that it is useless to many who cannot actually use or even identify the use of such diverse information, but out of the fact that people will only be paying for education that has a tangible benefit to their immediate employ or career goal.

As such I think you will see a shift more towards the European model in the very near future.

+1 This seems reasonable, and a sensible policy goal for education financing. Then again, those who are willing and able to pay for broad-based education will still be able to get it.

No question that degreed providers are coming...I just wish it were sooner than later!

 

[EpiEMS]

Addendum: The nursing educational model may be appropriate. Start with an associates degree as the minimum, and have bachelor's level degrees as well as graduate degrees for advancement purposes.

 

[gw812]

I'll second the idea that public school has failed. Testing there has nothing to do with actual ability to APPLY concepts, and many programs tie the teacher's hands when they try to implement that idea. Or hold a child accountable for their actions. Or be anything other than a generator of documentation that laws and policies have been followed.

 

[abckidsmom]

Cool. Sociology is good stuff. As long as you don't try to make a living at it, lol.

The knowledge you gain from taking the courses that you need for that major will, IMO, seriously make you a more well-rounded person, better able to understand the larger world, to reason, and to communicate ideas.

I think learning history and civics, and learning to analyze and reason are absolutely critical, and no one learns that basic stuff anymore. Schools don't even teach it. Schools are still spending hundreds of hours teaching cursive and trigonometry and how to play the recorder, when something like 60% of high school grads read at the 8th grade level, and some with college degrees seriously don't even understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. They can't name a founding father, tell you how many branches of government there are, tell you who Edgar Allan Poe or Winston Churchill was, or what continent WWI was primarily fought on. They think Che Guevera was a rock star from the 60's and that Mao Zedong and Pol Pot are chinese dishes. Some people who live in the US will tell you that Canada is in Europe. I have a teenage daughter and some of her friends seriously don't understand that you can't take more money out of your checking account than you have put into it. In order to explain it, I had to use their gas tank as analogy; the fact that you'll run out of gas if you don't add as much to your tank as you burn. Nevermind addressing slightly more abstract concepts such as what a natural right is vs. a government entitlement, what capitalism is, or how our monetary system works.

And these people vote, both in our democratic elections and in the marketplace, with their money.

Oy. This got me a little fired up. Time for a drink.

One of the reasons we homeschool. My 4th grader can tell you more about why Mesopotamia is so important than I ever learned in my public school education.

We live and talk through current events, and wrap them all the way back through history as we read world history in a 4-year classical cycle.

Revamping the college system in the US will have to start in 3rd grade. Our educational system is that messed up.

 

[Veneficus]

Revamping the college system in the US will have to start in 3rd grade. Our educational system is that messed up.

Don't get me started. My public school education was nothing sort of abuse.

The only value I got from it was the realization that I had to learn outside of school.

 

[sir.shocksalot]

Don't get me started. My public school education was nothing sort of abuse.

The only value I got from it was the realization that I had to learn outside of school.

You got more than I did then. I had to figure that out in college when I didn't know the math to pass college chemistry. Granted, my public high school education is probably more recent than yours is

 

[Veneficus]

You got more than I did then. I had to figure that out in college when I didn't know the math to pass college chemistry. Granted, my public high school education is probably more recent than yours is

The only thing I learned in public school was that I was a bane to "respectable" society and I was to make a career in prison or do the world a favor and just die.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

The only thing I learned in public school was that I was a bane to "respectable" society and I was to make a career in prison or do the world a favor and just die.

Your an inspiration for my sociology minor vene

 

[BOSlife]

The 'Higher education' system failed me, EMS saved me

Hello,

I find this thread very interesting. I have tossed around various ideas expressed by you all since I started my paramedic education.

I started my college education straight out of high school (like all the guidance counselors pressed and stressed on the HS seniors with good GPA, test scores) I went to UCF with the intention (as a naive 18 year old ready to drink and party, living the live away from home) - studying pre-medicine. I was under the impression: study and get As and you'll do well.

Needless to say the road to med school is tougher than I expected when I began the full work load every semester. I started searching for other opportunities. That is when I found EMS at my local community college. I took my EMT program one summer and loved it but still decided to continue a degree in Psychology at UCF

I was convinced out of a B.S in Psychology due to a poor job market, student loans piling up, and my drive to work as an EMT and go to paramedic school.

So that is where I am now, currently in my first semester as a paramedic -about to be employed by an IFT agency as an EMT, and wondering where I want to take my education next, after paramedic school.

I love the medical side and know from speaking with completers of my current program, that my medical education as a paramedic will come to halt soon enough in my program (I have considered the Fire service, but don't know when or where I will obtain FF standards) I will have an associates in EMS when I finish paramedic, also.

Schulz, what kind of programs are there for certified paramedics looking for a B.S degree? What other countries would you suggest studying in to learn more about paramedicine?

Theres a possibility P.A school or Med school could be in my future, but I just am not sure at this point. I feel experience in the healthcare field will justify this decision.

 

[46Young]

I work in a fire based EMS system. The only reason I'm completing my EMS AAS is for promotional purposes. The degree maxes me out for educational points for the next Lieutenant's exam. Otherwise, I would see absolutely no financial benefit in getting this degree. I couldn't justify the time and monetary expense versus the lost opportunity cost for overtime at my job, or time spent with my family, instead of paying for, and taking numerous classes.

My next step is to get my degree in Emergency Management. Now,that's a useful degree.

Pop quiz:

In the USA, save for two or three states that require a degree, how much more does a degreed medic make over a cert medic? The answer is, nothing to maybe 3% at best, and only in a select few departments.

So I ask, how do you justify the time and monetary expense in pursuing an EMS AAS, when a cert through a vocational program will suffice in most places?