FF1 Required - Not terribly thrilled

[DrParasite]

Is that your final answer? Because it sounds suspiciously like "because, that's why." If you can't articulate a concrete, rational, needs-based reason for doing something, why do it?

Care to try again?

sure. because when you join a volunteer department, you agree to abide by their rules. don't like it, find another department.

If you don't want to become a FF, why not join an EMS only agency?

btw, I totally support different agencies for fire and EMS operations, for this very reason.

 

[MrJones]

sure. because when you join a volunteer department, you agree to abide by their rules. don't like it, find another department.

If you don't want to become a FF, why not join an EMS only agency?

btw, I totally support different agencies for fire and EMS operations, for this very reason.

"...when you join a volunteer department, you agree to abide by their rules" says something very different from "if you are going to tell every FF to be trained as an EMT, than every EMT should be trained as a FF", wouldn't you agree?

 

[Veneficus]

You know the real beauty of a volunteer dept?

It is really easy to quit.

 

[hogwiley]

Fire and EMS are seperate at my volly department. Most EMTs have no desire to be FFs and vice versa. We do have a couple who do both, but they wind up focusing almost exclusively on EMS, since its 95% of what they end up doing.

At one time the EMS roster got so low they tried making FFers go to EMT school, but it didnt work out very well apparently, with a few of them failing or quitting the course and costing the township a lot of money.

Ive always been open to the idea of doing FF1 and 2, but they usually have more than enough people wanting to go, so Ive let people more motivated about being a firefighter go instead. Maybe some day, unless I get too old first, but its not a priority.

If I was you id go and have fun. Unless you have a fear of heights or are seriously claustrophobic I dont see any reason not too.

 

[46Young]

That still doesn't explain why.

It can be a staffing deployment thing. For example, the more rural a region gets, the less available trained providers will be for both firefighting and also EMS. It can be due to funding, or it can be due to lack of willing participants. There are only "X" number of fire stations, so places may look to go "single pull," which necessitates the duty crew to be cross trained. There simply isn't enough people available to staff separate EMS and fire effectively.

It can be about money. When you cross train people, you can get by with less employees.

It can be about quotas. I'm told that FDNY took over EMS mainly to be able to show a large amount of minorities and females on the payroll.

 

[NYMedic828]

With a quick scan of the pages I didn't find the answer to the below...

Is the OP a volunteer FF or EMT...

If you only volunteer as an EMT then that makes no sense though you should be trained on operating on the fireground. If you are a firefighter/EMT then I have no remorse for you as 99% of volunteer fire departments barely train to the bare minimum they should.

 

[mp5dude]

Volunteer EMT.

 

[Jon]

Well, OP, I'm in a similar position as you.

I joined a station in what is arguably the bluesiest combination department in the US about a year ago. We have 2 membership options, EMS only and Fire/EMS. All must have EMT within 18 months, Firefighters are given 36 months to do FF1 and EMT.

I've just started Fire 1. I'm doing it primarily for kicks, but also because I enjoy 'playing' fire. I'm finding it to be a nice break from EMS.

And yes, I think N7's analogy is spot on.

 

[NYMedic828]

Well, OP, I'm in a similar position as you.

I joined a station in what is arguably the bluesiest combination department in the US about a year ago. We have 2 membership options, EMS only and Fire/EMS. All must have EMT within 18 months, Firefighters are given 36 months to do FF1 and EMT.

I've just started Fire 1. I'm doing it primarily for kicks, but also because I enjoy 'playing' fire. I'm finding it to be a nice break from EMS.

And yes, I think N7's analogy is spot on.

Really? They allow up to 3 years to get your BASIC training requirements done? That is insane.

Volunteer EMT.

Then it is a bit silly to force you to go through FF training.

 

[Christopher]

My volly Department is making it mandatory for members to be FF1.. I'm not terribly thrilled about the idea (I have my reasons why I dont consider it to be an interesting thing) and I'm looking for pointers on the class.. anything that I need to be careful of, or whatever....

Thanks...

-_-

Our combined department (19 career, 80+ vollies) requires of full time employees that they be FFII/Paramedic within 5 years of employment. Part Time employees require a full cert (e.g. FFII or EMT or EMT-I or EMT-P).

I can tell you why a lot of volly departments mandate minimums:

Meeting first due structural response numbers. You need a certain number of certified individuals on scene to these calls in order to maintain good ratings (and stay on the friendly side of NFPA standards).

I am voluntarily taking D/O classes when I can, so that if push comes to shove and we need actual firefighters in a building, I can walk over and assume the Engineer position.

I have no desire to become a firefighter, but I understand the pressure your chief is under (I sit on our board of directors). Is forcing folks to do something they do not want to do a good way to meet some standard? Nope, but they might not have a choice.

Is Firefighter I training useful for all members of a fire department? Honest answer: Yes.

Consider this firefighter awareness training. It will make you a better member of a fire department. Even knowing the basics like catching a plug or laddering a structure will make you that much more valuable on scene.

 

[Veneficus]

Is Firefighter I training useful for all members of a fire department? Honest answer: Yes.

Consider this firefighter awareness training. It will make you a better member of a fire department. Even knowing the basics like catching a plug or laddering a structure will make you that much more valuable on scene.

I think this is a really great point.

To say it another way, people can force you to go to firefighter training, they cannot force you to be a firefighter.

If you decide you are not going to do an interior attack, nobody can change that.

Chances are you won't have enough firefighters on scene to effectively do an interior attack anyway. Going into a building without the proper man power is just suicide, especially with inexperienced and unmotivated people and officers.

From my ancient fire standpoint, I wouldn't want to be in any fire with people that didn't want to be there. That is another way people needlessly get killed.

Fully involved modern lightweight construction isn't conducive to interior firefighting anyway. At best it is a basement save. If you have a considerable response time, greater than water on fire in about 8 minutes, you can forget it being a room and contents only.

Maybe forcing you to be a firefighter might make local insurance premiums go down, but it certainly will have no practical effect in terms of reducing actual losses or saving lives.

 

[Household6]

I think this is a really great point.

To say it another way, people can force you to go to firefighter training, they cannot force you to be a firefighter.

If you decide you are not going to do an interior attack, nobody can change that.

Chances are you won't have enough firefighters on scene to effectively do an interior attack anyway. Going into a building without the proper man power is just suicide, especially with inexperienced and unmotivated people and officers.

From my ancient fire standpoint, I wouldn't want to be in any fire with people that didn't want to be there. That is another way people needlessly get killed.

Fully involved modern lightweight construction isn't conducive to interior firefighting anyway. At best it is a basement save. If you have a considerable response time, greater than water on fire in about 8 minutes, you can forget it being a room and contents only.

Maybe forcing you to be a firefighter might make local insurance premiums go down, but it certainly will have no practical effect in terms of reducing actual losses or saving lives.

I like that point of view; every single part of it.

But OTOH, if someone else is going to pay for me to go to school and learn something new, why wouldn't I? It doesn't mean I'm going to go rushing into a burning building with a team I've never worked with or trained with.

There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to go fetch the Lieutenant some step cribbing, or a spanner wrench or a combi-cutter off his truck if he calls for it.

 

[MrJones]

I have to admit, even though I'm in the "EMS and Fire should be separate organizations" camp, some good points have been made here in support of EMTs/Medics receiving FF training in those departments that are, for whatever reason, combined.

 

[Christopher]

I have to admit, even though I'm in the "EMS and Fire should be separate organizations" camp, some good points have been made here in support of EMTs/Medics receiving FF training in those departments that are, for whatever reason, combined.

(I work for all three models of EMS and can say that the only reason one model would work any better than the others is based entirely on the organization in question.)

As another example, if you joined an EMS organization that performed HAZMAT as well...it would be odd if you did not at least get HAZMAT Awareness training.

 

[Veneficus]

As another example, if you joined an EMS organization that performed HAZMAT as well...it would be odd if you did not at least get HAZMAT Awareness training.

Not really.

I was dispatched to a hazmat incident working for a private EMS company. When I started asking hazmat questions like what the best approach route was, if the material had been identified, where we could store all the non-essential equipment from the unit (like the matress) what we had to cover the inside of the unit with, etc. I was told:

"It doesn't matter, you will be in the safe zone."

Even the supervisors didn't know what the DOT Hazardous Response Guidebook was.

This same agency had no idea of the hazards of pulling head in into every driveway, and regularly would get onscene of car accidents and drive right up to the vehicle involved and park in the puddle of liquid that came from the smashed car.

Not only did they tell me I was crazy for thinking it was an unsafe practice but I was often reminded how little about EMS I knew and how incapable I was.

 

[NYMedic828]

Even the supervisors didn't know what the DOT Hazardous Response Guidebook was.

FDNY EMS provides hazmat awareness training but realistically it is worthless. Being taught BASIC as possible hazmat 5 years+ ago when you were in the academy and never hearing about it again is just wasting time.

We all know what the DOT ERG is but people knowing how to read and utilize it? Ha.

 

[Veneficus]

We all know what the DOT ERG is but people knowing how to read and utilize it? Ha.

I'll bet the firefighters do.

 

[NYMedic828]

I'll bet the firefighters do.

I can't speak for that one yet but I don't doubt it. Its not exactly a complex system... You understand the index of color coding and you find your answers.

If nothing else I'm sure the Hazmat companies do.

 

[Veneficus]

I can't speak for that one yet but I don't doubt it. Its not exactly a complex system... You understand the index of color coding and you find your answers.

If nothing else I'm sure the Hazmat companies do.

You know you can look it up by color, name, or number

 

[NYMedic828]

You know you can look it up by color, name, or number

Yea yea yea. Showoff.

For the record, in no way am I advocating that EMS is stupid and can't learn it blah blah blah. What irks me is that people learn it once and never care to learn it again. If firefighters here do understand it, it is for the simple fact that they have trained and refreshed their knowledge more frequently than once every 10 years.

My volunteer establishment I can't say the same. We are like most, minimalists. Majority probably don't even know what the book looks like or where we keep it.