Federal officers delayed, threatened to ‘shoot and arrest’ ambulance crew at Portland ICE facility, report says

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So far, this thread hasn't risen to the level of needing to be locked or people getting banned. As long as it remains civil, and the arguments are directed towards the content and not the poster it will remain open since it has proven highly informative on how people let their political bias and prejudice interfere with their reasoning and critical thinking skills...which opens up the possibility of a future discussion on how that effects those same skills in an EMS environment .
along those lines, does bias have an effect on behavior, and should we risk our profession to lend credibility to “law enforcement” engaged in morally, socially and legally-indefensible conduct?
 
So you're definition of peaceful protests includes protesters attempting to run over agents, physically block them from doing their job, etc...?

The reason they go out into public to do those "assaults" you claim? Did you even bother to stop and think for the half second to realize it may be due to local law enforcement NOT enforcing the laws to keep the protests peaceful?

As far as the use of CS and the courts, I'm not going to comment about that because the appeals process is still ongoing.

Even though they're primarily suposoed to enforce immigration law, they're still federal law enforcement agents with the power to arrest and detain anyone for violating federal laws.

The explosive entry SWAT raids? Yeah, they have probably have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the raid, their criminal history, or their history of weapon possession because you're "110% certain" every other cop in the world disagrees with them and agrees with you simply because you said so.
Maybe it’s not Local’s job to disperse crowds of peaceful protestors. Pesky 1st Amendment!

That explosive raid? It was literally performed as a **PR stunt* because Kristi Noem wants a spectacle and that home was chosen ****precisely**** because it was low-risk. And let’s not even crack the opening of the door that is their Chicago apartment raid (where American citizens were hauled out of their homes and detained for hours while being “screened”), or the multiple episodes where ICE agents have assaulted motorists, protesters, etc (to include at least one lethal-force incident in Chicago, where somehow, a woman was sooo dangerous that she needed to be shot five times, but wasn’t dangerous enough to arrest at the hospital???

Point being, a lot of us here are very conservative and will enthusiastically try and find a way to support ICE and DHS and the current administration’s policies because a lot of us really don’t like the undocumented/illegal/Hispanic populations in our communities and we’re frustrated by anecdotal but consistent abuses of public services, public welfare and emergency services by those communities without real or perceived accountability or support from those communities. I get it. We’ve all run that frequent flyer with better stuff and more money than we have in Little Guatemala that calls at 3am for their blood pressure meds and we’ve all seen those arrogant young men smiling at their DUI stop next to a massive wreck because we know there will be no real consequences and they’ll simply disappear without accountability. I get it. Seeing ICE deport those people is gratifying. I ain’t even opposed to the deportations, economic consequences included. Freeze ‘em all. Except that’s not what is happening. ICE has a tough, necessary mission. They’re just carrying it out abusively.

What I am opposed to is the conduct of the people doing it, and how they are making a mockery of the Constitution and the law, and how they are damaging both the institutions of law enforcement and even their mission of deportation. Because it’s performative terrorism at this point. If ICE was serious about deporting “the worst of the worst”, they’d start with known criminals, working with the Hispanic communities across our nation, and they’d have a concurrent and mutually-respectful process to turn a blind eye towards the non-problematic populations while an adult political solution is reached…but instead, we’ve got Meal Team Six Cold Squad picking people out of immigration courthouses and ripping moms out of the drop-off line at elementary schools because their goal is to undermine trust in the justice system and government.

Read that again. Their goal is not domestic security or law enforcement. It is politically-targeted policing aiming at suppressing the vote in Democrat-aligned communities and its being done in such a way as to open the door for a “lawful” use of force against non-Administration political parties and voters to dissuade their participation in the midterms and beyond.

That’s bold, and horrific, but I genuinely think it’s the truth. I don’t think it’ll ultimately be successful, and I do think it’ll result in catastrophe for America in general and many people in particular, and I think it will severely damage both the professions of law enforcement and public safety in general in that those of us who choose to participate in ICE support and shenanigans will be ostracized by society.

We are all going to be culturally associated with the modern reincarnation of antebellum slave catchers, and that ain’t great for us as EMS professionals.
And those slave catchers? Remember that they were lawful agents, ones who the Fugitive Slave Act required local authorities support, and who were granted Federal protections and immunities from local ordinances while they kidnapped people back into slavery.

That is not a good place for us to be.
 
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Even though they're primarily suposoed to enforce immigration law, they're still federal law enforcement agents with the power to arrest and detain anyone for violating federal laws.
Aside from the FBI, which has their own Academy (covers all the material FLETC does), there are a HUGE number of Federal Law Enforcement Officers from quite a few agencies that all go through FLETC for their Federal Law Enforcement Training. Here's a list of the agencies that send their LEOs to FLETC. And yes, they can enforce Federal Law anywhere in the US or US Territories. So... yes, while ICE officers are primarily assigned to Immigration enforcement, if someone commits a Federal Crime in their presence, an ICE officer may effect an arrest for that crime.
 
along those lines, does bias have an effect on behavior, and should we risk our profession to lend credibility to “law enforcement” engaged in morally, socially and legally-indefensible conduct?
Like I said, that's a different discussion for later.
 
Their actions may not have been intentional but I can see the officers point that he may have been afraid they were going to run him over, accidentally or intentionally
If you’re on such an undisciplined hair trigger that you think an ambulance is going to run you over from a dead stop, you’re probably not in a good place to be toting a firearm around. That’s literally “one falling acorn on a car roof” level.
 
Maybe it’s not Local’s job to disperse crowds of peaceful protestors. Pesky 1st Amendment!

That explosive raid? It was literally performed as a **PR stunt* because Kristi Noem wants a spectacle and that home was chosen ****precisely**** because it was low-risk. And let’s not even crack the opening of the door that is their Chicago apartment raid (where American citizens were hauled out of their homes and detained for hours while being “screened”), or the multiple episodes where ICE agents have assaulted motorists, protesters, etc (to include at least one lethal-force incident in Chicago, where somehow, a woman was sooo dangerous that she needed to be shot five times, but wasn’t dangerous enough to arrest at the hospital???

Point being, a lot of us here are very conservative and will enthusiastically try and find a way to support ICE and DHS and the current administration’s policies because a lot of us really don’t like the undocumented/illegal/Hispanic populations in our communities and we’re frustrated by anecdotal but consistent abuses of public services, public welfare and emergency services by those communities without real or perceived accountability or support from those communities. I get it. We’ve all run that frequent flyer with better stuff and more money than we have in Little Guatemala that calls at 3am for their blood pressure meds and we’ve all seen those arrogant young men smiling at their DUI stop next to a massive wreck because we know there will be no real consequences and they’ll simply disappear without accountability. I get it. Seeing ICE deport those people is gratifying. I ain’t even opposed to the deportations, economic consequences included. Freeze ‘em all.

What I am opposed to is the conduct of the people doing it, and how they are making a mockery of the Constitution and the law, and how they are damaging both the institutions of law enforcement and even their mission of deportation. Because it’s performative terrorism at this point. If ICE was serious about deporting “the worst of the worst”, they’d start with known criminals, working with the Hispanic communities across our nation, and they’d have a concurrent and mutually-respectful process to turn a blind eye towards the non-problematic populations while an adult political solution is reached…but instead, we’ve got Meal Team Six Cold Squad picking people out of immigration courthouses because their goal is to undermine trust in the justice system and government.

Read that again. Their goal is not domestic security or law enforcement. It is politically-targeted policing aiming at suppressing the vote in Democrat-aligned communities and its being done in such a way as to open the door for a “lawful” use of force against non-Administration political parties and voters to dissuade their participation in the midterms and beyond.

That’s bold, and horrific, but I genuinely think it’s the truth. I don’t think it’ll ultimately be successful, and I do think it’ll result in catastrophe for America in general and many people in particular, and I think it will severely damage both the professions of law enforcement and public safety in general in that those of us who choose to participate in ICE support and shenanigans will be ostracized by society.
If it's not the local PD's job to disperse protesters physically blocking federal agents from doing their job, then you don't get to complain when federal agents do it instead.

Do you have an actual, unbiased or at least a center leaning source for your claims the explosive entry was strictly a PR stunt on a low risk house, or are you basing those claims upon biased sources and opinions?

Do the actions of federal agents deserve scrutiny? Absolutely. Do they deserve to be convicted and crucified based solely upon political opinion and headlines? No way. Just like everyone else, they're to be judged after all the specific facts of the individual incident are known, which is very difficult when people jump to conclusions on either side because it supports their preferred opinions. All the tossing about of emotional words and descriptions in an effort to convince others instead of getting to the facts does nothing but intentionally muddy the waters. Facts are facts and objective, truth is subjective and not always the same no matter how much some wish it to be.
 
Maybe it’s not Local’s job to disperse crowds of peaceful protestors.
But it's also not "Local's" job to assist the crowd in their mission to disrupt or obstruct the Federal LEO's job. The instant a crowd no longer is peaceful, it IS the job of the Local LEO to deal with it. If they don't, then someone in the Local's chain of command could be held responsible for their failure to act.
 
If you’re on such an undisciplined hair trigger that you think an ambulance is going to run you over from a dead stop, you’re probably not in a good place to be toting a firearm around. That’s literally “one falling acorn on a car roof” level.
Cool...so you're willing to pass judgement based upon only one side of the story and without knowing all the facts.
 
In the report I read it said the ambulance was delayed because the officers were not sure if they were going to arrest the injured protester and the ambulance crew said they would not allow ICE to ride in on their ambulance unless the patient was in custody. So after a while it was decided the patient would not be placed in custody, no charges were ever filed, and the ICE agents decided to follow the ambulance to the hospital.

If you look at all the protests going on, I have not seen any reports from anywhere in the nation about an ambulance or fire engine being blocked or damaged.
Yes, and let’s dig into that. A protester, who sustained an injury inflicted by ICE, was simultaneously so disruptive as to need to be injured by law enforcement, yet was so insignificantly disruptive as to not be arrested or charged. Armed gunmen, allegedly LEOs, trying to interject themselves into the private care of an American citizen, butttt not willing to legally take responsibility for their actions via arrest. Lazy, incompetent, or ???

Point being, if they’re going to do cop stuff, do cop stuff. Do paperwork and arrest people and due process and all that. Send those “Antifa” to jail and court and bring evidence and Due Process them. Do the hard work of law enforcement.

But that’s not what they want to do, because it’s not flashy, and it doesn’t involve toting guns in propaganda videos to threaten Americans. For a group of people who are apparently really into cosplay, that’s not what they want to do at all. Way easier to just ram a rental car into some random brown motorist, or pick a scared person out of an immigration court hearing, or detain South Korean engineers for a week based on a paperwork violation.
 
Cool...so you're willing to pass judgement based upon only one side of the story and without knowing all the facts.
Oh, you mean like deference an trust you’re extending to ICE? I mean, the AMR crew is “unverified”, but you’re eagerly carrying at least a half-pail of water for the dudes shooting clergymen in the head with pepperballs…

I’m going to see myself out of this thread before I get banned, but before I go, a historical backhand.

Back in the 1850s, federally-warranted slave catchers empowered by the Fugitive Slave Act came North, kidnapping hundreds of people. Black people weren’t allowed to testify in their own defense, and it took literal tarring and feathering and assault to dissuade them. In defiance of federal law.

You, ffemt, probably wouldn’t have been on the side of Josiah Chamberlain or Robert Gould Shaw…
 
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Oh, you mean like deference an trust you’re extending to ICE?
No, I'm waiting till we know both sides so we can make informed decisions based upon facts instead of bias and emotionally charged wording deliberately chosen to try and influence that decision by emotion instead of facts.

We get it...you've made your political position abundantly clear and you're entitled to that. You're even entitled to try and change others opinions, but you're not helping your case when you base all your arguments one one side of the story and your biases and opinions.
 
But it's also not "Local's" job to assist the crowd in their mission to disrupt or obstruct the Federal LEO's job. The instant a crowd no longer is peaceful, it IS the job of the Local LEO to deal with it. If they don't, then someone in the Local's chain of command could be held responsible for their failure to act.
Which raises the question…who dos Local arrest if it’s Federal escalation?
 
No, I'm waiting till we know both sides so we can make informed decisions based upon facts instead of bias and emotionally charged wording deliberately chosen to try and influence that decision by emotion instead of facts.

We get it...you've made your political position abundantly clear and you're entitled to that. You're even entitled to try and change others opinions, but you're not helping your case when you base all your arguments one one side of the story and your biases and opinions.
You honestly think AMR, a corporation with national contracts and dollars, will investigate??? Or that ICE will investigate an assault on an American citizen that was already legally-dubious at best?

Faithful, are we?
 
Oh, you mean like deference an trust you’re extending to ICE? I mean, the AMR crew is “unverified”, but you’re eagerly carrying at least a half-pail of water for the dudes shooting clergymen in the head with pepperballs…

I’m going to see myself out of this thread before I get banned, but before I go, a historical backhand.

Back in the 1850s, federally-warranted slave catchers empowered by the Fugitive Slave Act came North, kidnapping hundreds of people. Black people weren’t allowed to testify in their own defense, and it took literal tarring and feathering and assault to dissuade them. In defiance of federal law.

You, ffemt, probably wouldn’t have been on the side of Josiah Chamberlain or Robert Gould Shaw…
What part of both sides of the story are you having difficulty understanding? No where have I said I supported or opposed the actions of the agent. I pointed out possible scenarios where it may have been justified or misinterpreted by one or both sides, which we won't know till we hear both sides.

Your assumptions about me mean absolutely nothing since you have no factual basis for them other than your opinions.
 
What part of both sides of the story are you having difficulty understanding? No where have I said I supported or opposed the actions of the agent. I pointed out possible scenarios where it may have been justified or misinterpreted by one or both sides, which we won't know till we hear both sides.

Your assumptions about me mean absolutely nothing since you have no factual basis for them other than your opinions.
Well, at least I know one answer to the “trust” question…
 
If it's not the local PD's job to disperse protesters physically blocking federal agents from doing their job, then you don't get to complain when federal agents do it instead.

Do you have an actual, unbiased or at least a center leaning source for your claims the explosive entry was strictly a PR stunt on a low risk house, or are you basing those claims upon biased sources and opinions?

Do the actions of federal agents deserve scrutiny? Absolutely. Do they deserve to be convicted and crucified based solely upon political opinion and headlines? No way. Just like everyone else, they're to be judged after all the specific facts of the individual incident are known, which is very difficult when people jump to conclusions on either side because it supports their preferred opinions. All the tossing about of emotional words and descriptions in an effort to convince others instead of getting to the facts does nothing but intentionally muddy the waters. Facts are facts and objective, truth is subjective and not always the same no matter how much some wish it to be.
Also hard to hold people accountable when they go anonymous…
 
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