Entering a locked building ?

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MIkePrekopa

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I was talking to one of my high school friends about my EMT-B class and she asked me an interesting question I don't remember covering.

She asked what rights we have as EMS to enter a building... She purposed this situation.

Neighbor 1 and 2 are good friends. 1 goes over to 2's house for whatever reason. for some reason he is expecting an answer at the door and gets none. curious he finds the doors locked and starts looking into windows, finding 1 on the floor. 2 bangs on the window and wall calling out 1's name wit no response. fearing the worst he calls 911.

You respond. Being an EMT-B, where does the law stand on entering, be it through breaking a window or something ?

For the example we assume that the scene is safe, and there was no need to call LEO so far. I figured radio for LEO, and call non-emergency police and ask them explaining the situation... I have class tomorrow and will ask the instructors what they think about it, but I thought it was an interesting question, interesting enough to pose to you folks.

And just a little CYA, I tried searching but couldn't find anything on the topic. I wasn't sure if it should go here or Scenarios, so I figured I would start here, sorry if I am wrong.
 
Funny story from my EMT clinicals a year ago:


We got called out for a suicide attempt. We staged down the road, but the medic and emt decided to go in because it was a 20y/o girl and they weren't too worried that she'd out-muscle 3 guys.


We arrive and PD and FD arrive right after... so 2 police cars, an engine with 4 FF's, another medic/emt and me... 9 people.

We knock on the door. Nothing. We walk around the house looking in all the windows. Nothing. Keep in mind an ambulance, engine, and police cars outside with lights on.


We send FD on their way and one of the cops calls for a supervisor. Once the supervisor arrived, he broke open the door and we went in. First door we went to was a bedroom with a guy laying in it, confused as to what was going on.

The cops said "Is so-and-so here" and the guy replied she hasn't been there all day. When asked why he didn't answer the door or the knocks on the windows, he said he didn't know it was his house...






Long story short: Let the cops do the breaking in... it's their territory.
 
If I see the pt passed out on the floor in plain sight, then sure go in, but try all other ways in first...
 
I don't know about what our "rights" or special legal privileges are regarding entering a locked building when a known patient is inside. All I know is that you have to be able to make decisions on scene and I will attempt to enter a building while waiting for PD as safely as I can even if that involves some property damage if it comes down to a life and death issue.

In the end it is always about doing what is best for your patient.
 
Have LEOs do it if possible. Or, as is the case in my area, if a situation as you decribed happens, Fire and/or Ambo can notify Dispatch and ask for permission from the LEOs to force entry.

Just remember this (and it a truism I preach): Any action you take in life (and especially in Emergency Services) should be founded in a logical viewpoint that you can defend latter. In the end, you must be able to look back and defend your actions to others as well as yourself. i.e. after you force entry, the homeowner sues your company for repairs, and you a called before your supervisors to answer questions about your actions... Can you defend them with 100% confidence that what you did was right? As daedalus said, "In the end it is always about doing what is best for your patient". Will that be a 100& honest argument?
 
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In my state it's pretty vague. The law basically says that as long as we have reasonable suspicion that someone needs aid, and we make every attempt to enter the premises without causing damage, and we notify PD, we are in the clear.

In my area having a LEO available to respond to non-emergency issues is a problem. I was there when we forcibly entered a home several weeks ago and when we called for PD they responded they would be there "eventually". I would guess that the FD has to forcibly enter a premises once a month in my area, but that is a rough guess. PD likes to be on scene when we do it, but if they don't have an ETA the FD will go ahead without them there.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that when we entered it was on a "breathing problems". We wouldn't have done it on an assault/suicide etc where LEO normally has to be on scene first.
 
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I say pon it off on someone. working in LA a few years back, I had this. i was a female patient c/o severe pain. We show up at the address, no answer. Tried the callback # and double checked the address and cleared it with dispatch that we were gaining entry. Forced entry to find that no one was there, LOL:blush:

The RP gave us the wrong address. Needless to say, we still have a job to do. Dead people don't open doors, and we have a Duty to Act. Just Document, Document, Document:excl: and let PD explain it when they get home.
 
In NYC, the PD or FD can break into the house for purposes of finding someone having a medical emergency.

We had the FD break into an apartment for an unconscious. FD broke the front door and a locked dooir inside the apartment and we found no one. It was a prank call. We had to wait for the PD to show up and secure the house.
 
99 times out of 100 these access calls are medical alarms with no other information in my area. Police are always sent along with us to gain access if need be. This is policy.

Were I to look in the window and see a body in plain sight and otherwise felt safe doing so, I would attempt to gain access myself while informing dispatch. Call the District Superintendent right after and make sure PD gets a statement and document like crazy. The reason being, this would be the exception, not the rule.
 
Our policy is to call the PD and EMS shift supervisor with Light/Siren "Hot". From that time on we check with the PD for open windows. It will be up to the PD to force entry which usually requires the FD for a rabbit tool to force a door and they will ladder a building anf force a second dtory window for post call security of the home.

We do not take the liability of forcing a door/window.
Our crews and supervisors also must file an incident report of the incident to be attached to the Electronic PCR.

The Supervisor must also get the Police Officers Name and badge number, his case number and his supervisors name authorizing the force.
If the FD on is on scene they must also obtain the FD case number and Officers Name assinged to the truck/engine.
 
NO rights beyond that of a common citizen.

Break in and you could wind up shot, sued, and fired. Not necessarily in that order.

As to whether you could "get away with it", depends.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Thats kind of what I figured, call PD and document like crazy. Depends on local protocols. What I think is if the patient is in plain view, and everything seems safe, call PD, and try to enter. but if you can't see them, I would not enter. I don't wanna break a small window to unlock the door, to be greeted by Bubba and his 12gauge. I'll post what the instructor says when I get back from class, but that wont be till around midnight.
 
Supposedly...

We have a policy that we are allowed to force entry only if we have:
-Confirmed with dispatch
-Confirmed no LEO in area
-Confirm person in distress

Otherwise we are required to wait for LEOs to arrive.

This summer we had a call for a pt with chest pain and breathing difficulty. Arrived at the address (At night in a thunderstorm, no less. <_< ) and no one answered the door. Called and confirmed the address with dispatch. LE was dispatched. Did a walk around of the place exterior and a room light was on. We peaked over and saw a person lying on the floor. We rapped on the glass and yelled and the patient spoke, but about 60 seconds later she quit speaking and was no longer responsive.

To make a long story short, LE arrived and did not wish to force entry, but did upon our request. The patient did indeed need immediate assistance, and I the correct choice did help. Still, forced entry isn't something I am comfortable with.
 
The best thing that you can do is call PD or FD for entry. You don't want to be sued for damages related to breaking and entering. Unless it's truly life and death, entry should be made using the least invasive method, causing the least amount of damage. FD/PD can possibly go through the lock, maybe pop some glass next to the door, or preferably ladder the unlocked second floor window. Once entry has been made, PD will need to remain to secure the residence. For the fire buffs out there, FDNY's forcible entry manual is required reading.

Also, KNOCK LOUDLY and SHOUT! It's likely that a third party caller requested 911 for an elderly pt (HOH).

Some pts who have medical alert tags will have a key hidden somewhere outside, perhaps in a box that the company has the comb to.
 
With the fire department, if we can't get in, we're authorized to break in. I don't know if we legally need to notify PD, but we do anyways. It's best to have them there, but they're sometimes too busy.

Everywhere else, we call PD and wait for them to do it. They'll also try to find the patient before we come in. If there's any suspicion that this might be a law enforcement call, they'll also look very thoroughly for criminals hiding.

46Young said:
Some pts who have medical alert tags will have a key hidden somewhere outside, perhaps in a box that the company has the comb to.
Click to expand...

A lot of people keep spare keys outside. I sometimes run with a former realtor, and she can usually spot hidden keys within a few seconds of being somewhere. People tend to keep them in the same few places. Fake rocks in the garden, under cushions of furniture outside, on top of doorframes, and so on.

We've had trouble lately with being locked out of apartment buildings. The codes dispatch has are sometimes outdated. Usually this results in us buzzing random people until someone lets us in.
 
Let LEOs do it, or do it myself once clearing it with a supervisor, if there are no LEOs/FFs available.
 
Lets see...If FD can force-entry on a fire, to save property; then why not a life?
 
cm4short said:
Lets see...If FD can force-entry on a fire, to save property; then why not a life?
Click to expand...

Possibly saving a life (my own) by letting LEO do it.
 
cm4short said:
Lets see...If FD can force-entry on a fire, to save property; then why not a life?
Click to expand...

Because there are generally telltale signs of a fire such as smoke amd some FDs have thermal cameras.


There aren't any signs if someone is collapsed or if it's just a prank call
 
Linuss said:
Because there are generally telltale signs of a fire such as smoke amd some FDs have thermal cameras.


There aren't any signs if someone is collapsed or if it's just a prank call
Click to expand...

Maybe they are sleeping on the floor because their wife kicked them out of the bed and the dog wont give up the couch.

Or they like the firmness and support.
 
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