EMT-B With ACLS

[Anjel]

We take ACLS and PALS I. Medic school. And get certified before we test for registry.

Maybe there its some loop hole.

 

[EpiEMS]

ACLS is a very good class, if local classes will allow BLS providers to sit in for CEUs I think its a good idea to get an idea of what's going on during a cardiac arrest. But thats just me.

I'd very much like to take it. Beyond the CEUs, as you say, it'd help me understand what's going on during an arrest.

 

[mct601]

We take ACLS and PALS I. Medic school. And get certified before we test for registry.

Maybe there its some loop hole.

I don't think we will have PALS available to us, but they want us to have ACLS before we ever start hitting 'charge' on the monitor for our pts in the field. Now, not sure if they just WANT it, or REQUIRE it. because I'm not sure if the entire class is certified.

I'd very much like to take it. Beyond the CEUs, as you say, it'd help me understand what's going on during an arrest.

Unless you have a good foundation in cardiology, you won't understand the pathology behind the lethal rhythms, treatments, etc to your full potential. But you will see the X's and O's of how it should happen, why, and when. Of course it covers other stuff, but thats probably what you'll benefit from most.

 

[Veneficus]

I believe you have been gravely misinformed about the AHA ACLS course.

I don't think it is so much a grave misinformation as it is a strict interpretation of the rules. (Which because of instructors doing their own thing are becomming more strict over time in order to maintain conformity)

I still know of instructors feeling they can do their own thing better and do not use the video, and it has not been unheard of for their classes to get invalidated.

There should have been no problem with an Exercise Physiologist taking the course. They have been in ACLS classes for at least the past 20 some years that I can remember with no issues. Their knowledge in this area is very impressive especially since cardiac testing of various types is their thing. Exercise Physiologists are required to have ACLS in most any clinical situation especially in the hospitals. It is also taught as part of their Masters program and they are expected to have it before they get their degree..

I am not saying they shouldn't be able to take it.

What I said is it was the first time I encountered it and I had to make a few calls and fill out some extra paperwork to make sure there were no problems down the line. Doing extra work is a pain in the ***.

There is nothing stopping anyone from taking an ACLS course except for limited seats. Some places can limit the seats to their own employees or those in certain professions.

Nobody disputes anyone can sit in the class, but getting a card is an entirely different matter.

The card represents (some people get crazy of certified, but it is a semantic) that the participant can perform all the roles on the team, including that of the team leader.

There are also ACLS courses specifically designed for EMT-Bs through various agencies and for those who have an advanced understanding of the course or Experienced Provider through the AHA.

By various agencies, could you provide me a list of them, I would like to see?

The EP class is an official AHA class, with specific requirements as well.

 

[Doczilla]

I got my ACLS and PALS before I went to medic school. Then again, it was provided by an army hospital, and we all know the army isn't particularly choosy with stuff like that. Got my cards the next week, then took the instructor courses the next cycle.

If you understand physio, you will understand both. Physio is the foundation for all learning; at least for me it is.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I don't think it is so much a grave misinformation as it is a strict interpretation of the rules. (Which because of instructors doing their own thing are becomming more strict over time in order to maintain conformity)

I still know of instructors feeling they can do their own thing better and do not use the video, and it has not been unheard of for their classes to get invalidated.



I am not saying they shouldn't be able to take it.

What I said is it was the first time I encountered it and I had to make a few calls and fill out some extra paperwork to make sure there were no problems down the line. Doing extra work is a pain in the ***.



Nobody disputes anyone can sit in the class, but getting a card is an entirely different matter.

The card represents (some people get crazy of certified, but it is a semantic) that the participant can perform all the roles on the team, including that of the team leader.



By various agencies, could you provide me a list of them, I would like to see?

The EP class is an official AHA class, with specific requirements as well.

Exercise Physiologists are considered health care professionals.
Here is a link to job listings in which ACLS is a requirement for them.
http://www.indeed.com/q-Exercise-Physiologist-jobs.html

A link was provided earlier to show who can take ACLS.
""ACLS is designed for healthcare professionals who either direct or participate in the management of cardiopulmonary arrest and other cardiovascular emergencies. This includes personnel in emergency response, emergency medicine, intensive care and critical care units."


Yes, as an instructor you can probably decide what can or can not take ACLS but that is clearly not the intent of the AHA to discriminate against those who may need it for their job.

But, most will issue a card and the continuing ed certificate. If someone paid for the class you can not deny them proof of attending so they can earn the continuing ed. Even if you specifically don't list their profession it doesn't mean the class is not eligible for them to receive the credits.

By various agencies, could you provide me a list of them, I would like to see?

The EP class is an official AHA class, with specific requirements as well.

This has already been covered.

MMIz posted a link for the text book used for classes which is called ACLS for EMT-Bs. Anyone who teaches continuing ed courses or classes for EMTs can use the book.

I already said the EP is offered by the AHA.

Here is the link for it.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/CPRAn...xperienced-Provider-EP_UCM_306644_Article.jsp

Under the audience tab you will see it says
Healthcare professionals
• Clinicians
• Scientists
• Others who frequently respond to emergency cardiovascular and special resuscitation situations in their work environment


ACLS is not a license and it does not give permission to perform any of the skills. Your instructor should have covered that and if you were an instructor you should have made that clear and pointed it out in the text. It doesn't even go over the skills step by step to properly teach intubation or IV insertion. It is just an overview of the guidelines to advanced cardiac life support. People taking the course will usually know what they can or can not do. People take continuing education and college courses all the time in subjects that interest them but may not have a need for them in their professional job.

I think the AHA website is pretty clear and I have not seen the type of discrimination you have or have done when it comes to someone taking an ACLS class.

Doing a search here there is an instructor RidRyder who explains ACLS and the EMT-B stuff. That was in 2008 so this is nothing new.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=6302

 

[Veneficus]

ACLS is not a license and it does not give permission to perform any of the skills. Your instructor should have covered that and if you were an instructor you should have made that clear and pointed it out in the text. It doesn't even go over the skills step by step to properly teach intubation or IV insertion. It is just an overview of the guidelines to advanced cardiac life support. People taking the course will usually know what they can or can not do. People take continuing education and college courses all the time in subjects that interest them but may not have a need for them in their professional job.

Thanks for the insight.

But arguing certification of ACLS is like arguing licensure vs certification for EMS persons.

The practicality of it makes it pointless.

I don't dispute anyone can take the class and recieve something saying they attended.

I sent an email this afternoon to the AHA to make sure it is not just a local training center rule, but I am very sure there is a restriction on who can get a card.

 

[Veneficus]

update

As for EMT Basics taking ACLS page 44 of the ACLS instructor manual states "the AHA has developed the ACLS provider Course for currently active healthcare providers (eg. medical , nursing, emergency medical or allied health personnel ), whose daily occupation or volunteer activities demand proficiency in the knowledge and skills of ACLS., WHO CAN TAKE THE COURSE- Any currently active healthcare provider can take the course.In addition the course director has the discretion to allow other professionals who are deeply involved in the field of resuscitation (eg. scientist, educators, researchers, and manufacturers of medical devices) to attend the ACLS Provider Course. WHO CAN RECEIVE A COURSE COMPLETION CARD Only active healthcare providers whose training and scope of practice include a knowledge base encompassing the foundations of ACLS knowledge and skills may enroll in the ACLS provider course and receive and ACLS course completion card."

 

[VFlutter]

As for EMT Basics taking ACLS page 44 of the ACLS instructor manual states "the AHA has developed the ACLS provider Course for currently active healthcare providers (eg. medical , nursing, emergency medical or allied health personnel ), whose daily occupation or volunteer activities demand proficiency in the knowledge and skills of ACLS., WHO CAN TAKE THE COURSE- Any currently active healthcare provider can take the course.In addition the course director has the discretion to allow other professionals who are deeply involved in the field of resuscitation (eg. scientist, educators, researchers, and manufacturers of medical devices) to attend the ACLS Provider Course. WHO CAN RECEIVE A COURSE COMPLETION CARD Only active healthcare providers whose training and scope of practice include a knowledge base encompassing the foundations of ACLS knowledge and skills may enroll in the ACLS provider course and receive and ACLS course completion card."

I am in my last year of nursing school (graduate in 6 months), so if I took the class now I would not be able to receive a course completion card? I was thinking about taking ACLS before applying for jobs. A lot of floors do not require ACLS so I think it would be good to have compared to other new grads. Plus I have been working cardiac step down for a year so I know all the code algorithms already

 

[Veneficus]

Furhter clarified from national

EMT-B instructor, absolutely not.

The guidline was left ambiguous for EMT-Bs taking the course and receiving a card because of the variation in EMT-B scope.

However, the answer I got was further qualified that it was unlikely any place allows EMT-Bs to perform the peri-arrest electrical or pharmaceutical therapies and therefore would not be able to perform the skills outside of the arrest scenarios and to issue them a card would not accuratley reflect the intent of the rule.

 

[JakeEMTP]

Veneficus
Regardless of your email to me that you are the Senior Head of the American Heart Association, you contradict what the AHA states.

The AHA says that the certification of completion does not give you an expanded scope of practice or a license to be anything other than what your are.

Student Paramedics and nurses who still do not have a license take the course before graduation as do many others. They receive a cert of completion. It is a requirement for their course.

http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@ecc/documents/downloadable/ucm_429832.pdf

You can take ACLS even if you don't intubate, start IVs or push meds if you actively participate in code situations or need the CEs and can meet the prerequisites. Getting an ACLS card is how many qualify for a position. It doesn't mean they are doing the skills right now.

 

[Veneficus]

Veneficus
Regardless of your email to me that you are the Senior Head of the American Heart Association, you contradict what the AHA states. .[/QUOTE]

Actually, i didn't say that. I said I was taught by andpersonally know a senior member, it is probably best if you do not misrepresent what I said.

I also said I was a senior TCF at a very respected center.

misrepresentation does not help an argument.

If you like I can post that PM here, so the readers can judge the accuracy of your statements.

The reason I sent it PM is because I try to give my employers plausable deniability of my opinions if they don't like what I say.

my last two posts we copies of email that I recieved from both regional and national faculty members regarding this subject.

The AHA says that the certification of completion does not give you an expanded scope of practice or a license to be anything other than what your are.

I never said that it did. I think you need to reread the statements.

Student Paramedics and nurses who still do not have a license take the course before graduation as do many others. They receive a cert of completion. It is a requirement for their course.

Yes they do. Usually by convention, they are issued cards upon graduation, which are dated as such, with rosters submitted around time of graduation.

http://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@ecc/documents/downloadable/ucm_429832.pdf

After spending time today actually calling and talking to somebody in Dallas,(an international call on my dime) and in my home state making sure i had the proper information, I am not really interested in your link.

You can take ACLS even if you don't intubate, start IVs or push meds if you actively participate in code situations or need the CEs and can meet the prerequisites. Getting an ACLS card is how many qualify for a position. It doesn't mean they are doing the skills right now.

Your opinion does not seem to equate to the information I have received this afternoon.

If you are willing to provide me with the name and location of a training center doing something in contra to the statements posted above, I will be more than happy to have it looked into ASAP.

 

[Veneficus]

copy of the PM I sent.

AHA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have read many if not all of Rid's posts.

But I would like to kindly point out, that I am an instructor and TCF also, and turned down a regional faculty position because I didn't have time to dedicate to it because of my other pursuits.

I am also a senior faculty at the AHA training center that the AHA sends other instructors and training centers to in order to see "how it should be done."

The head of the AHA ACLS training was actually my former boss before he accepted that position.

I am rather familiar with the AHA, including its intentions and realities past liability limiting statements.

 

[WTEngel]

EMT-B instructor, absolutely not.

The guidline was left ambiguous for EMT-Bs taking the course and receiving a card because of the variation in EMT-B scope.

However, the answer I got was further qualified that it was unlikely any place allows EMT-Bs to perform the peri-arrest electrical or pharmaceutical therapies and therefore would not be able to perform the skills outside of the arrest scenarios and to issue them a card would not accuratley reflect the intent of the rule.

I am also TC Faculty and the quote above pretty much sums everything up.

Unfortunately TC's that follow the rules are the exception, not the rule...and most instructors give a card to anyone with a pulse and $180.00.

An EMT-B instructor...absolutely astounding!

 

[JakeEMTP]

Then who can take ACLS according to you Veneficus?

I don't care how many titles you want to give yourself or who you think you might know. All of this info is easy enough to confirm and anyone here who has taken an ACLS class knows that.

I call bogus to most of what you said since nurses who don't intubate, students, Exercise Physiologist, IR Techs, Cath Lab Techs, CVTs and a whole bunch of others take the course everyday.

It is an ACLS cert. Not a license and nothing more than something that says you sat through a class and met the minimum. Don't lose any sleep over it if nurses, Exercise Physiologists, EMTs or whatever take the course who you believe are not worth a certificate. You are making a big deal out of something that is very easy and not much worth the paper it is printed on anymore. It is just a formality to go through for most and money in the AHA pocket. It is an okay review for some taking it for the first time. Paramedics should already know this stuff and it just is another way to test them but not much more.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I am also TC Faculty and the quote above pretty much sums everything up.

Is this what you are agreeing with?

You can take ACLS even if you don't intubate, start IVs or push meds if you actively participate in code situations or need the CEs and can meet the prerequisites. Getting an ACLS card is how many qualify for a position. It doesn't mean they are doing the skills right now.

Your opinion does not seem to equate to the information I have received this afternoon. (per vene)

Are you saying you don't teach or give a card to nurses or anyone else who can't intubate or run a code themselves?

We have never denied a card to a nurse, Exercise Physiologist or anyone who has had a need to get the card for a job if they meet the requirements. That sounds like bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: if you believe only a few like only Paramedics can take the course.

 

[Veneficus]

An EMT-B instructor...absolutely astounding!

in another PM to Bstone, I speculated that the only way I could see this being legit would be a situation similar to what happened to medics with NRP.

At one time a medic could be an NRP instructor, then AAP decided they didn't spend enough time doing it.

They permit medics who were certified instructors prior to their change to renew their instructor cards, but if they lapse, they cannot get it back.

If you go to their website on the drop down boxes, "medic" on the instructor page is not even present to select.

I know a couple of medics who were able to submit a petition supported by the medical director of an educational institution and a pediatrician they recruited to certify a medic as an NRP instructor after the policy change, but the medics had to document over 100 extra hours of time in labor and delivery and there was an "educational need" due to no other instructors in the region.

 

[Doczilla]

One of the great things about the army: want ATLS? Knock yourself out! You just have to be willing to pick up trash in the mojabe desert in the middle of August after NTC.

 

[WTEngel]

Is this what you are agreeing with?

You can take ACLS even if you don't intubate, start IVs or push meds if you actively participate in code situations or need the CEs and can meet the prerequisites. Getting an ACLS card is how many qualify for a position. It doesn't mean they are doing the skills right now.

Your opinion does not seem to equate to the information I have received this afternoon. (per vene)

Are you saying you don't teach or give a card to nurses or anyone else who can't intubate or run a code themselves?

We have never denied a card to a nurse, Exercise Physiologist or anyone who has had a need to get the card for a job if they meet the requirements. That sounds like bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: if you believe only a few like only Paramedics can take the course.

The fact of the matter is that in the conventional role of the EMT-B, their scope includes ZERO of the skills involved in ACLS care, other than CPR. While CPR is one of the most important interventions, an EMT-B taking ACLS to learn that is absurd.

A nurse, paramedic, doctor, RT, etc. has a scope of practice that includes at least a portion of skills required to provide ACLS care, such as pushing meds, advanced airway management, ordering meds, planning and executing a course of care, etc.

No need to get all worked up about the issue. It is what it is.

 

[Veneficus]

Then who can take ACLS according to you Veneficus?

"As for EMT Basics taking ACLS page 44 of the ACLS instructor manual states "the AHA has developed the ACLS provider Course for currently active healthcare providers (eg. medical , nursing, emergency medical or allied health personnel ), whose daily occupation or volunteer activities demand proficiency in the knowledge and skills of ACLS., WHO CAN TAKE THE COURSE- Any currently active healthcare provider can take the course.In addition the course director has the discretion to allow other professionals who are deeply involved in the field of resuscitation (eg. scientist, educators, researchers, and manufacturers of medical devices) to attend the ACLS Provider Course. WHO CAN RECEIVE A COURSE COMPLETION CARD Only active healthcare providers whose training and scope of practice include a knowledge base encompassing the foundations of ACLS knowledge and skills may enroll in the ACLS provider course and receive and ACLS course completion card."

As that is the official position as postulated in the instructor manual, that is my position also.

I don't care how many titles you want to give yourself or who you think you might know. All of this info is easy enough to confirm and anyone here who has taken an ACLS class knows that.

I'd be curious to know your titles and what you might know, because while pasisonate, you don't seem overly informed.

I call bogus to most of what you said since nurses who don't intubate, students, Exercise Physiologist, IR Techs, Cath Lab Techs, CVTs and a whole bunch of others take the course everyday..

I would like to point out that intubation is not part of the mandated ACLS requirements, if you watch the video you are supposed to use, not only can you select not to watch it, but it even says it is not suggested inexperienced people try it.

Furthermore, if you look at the standard testing form, the performace of endotracheal intubation is not on it.

Just because you watch a nonsanctioned practice happen every day, doesn't make it right.

Like I said, let's put it to the test, tell me where it happens and I'll see to it somebody comes to check it out.

It is an ACLS cert. Not a license and nothing more than something that says you sat through a class and met the minimum. Don't lose any sleep over it if nurses, Exercise Physiologists, EMTs or whatever take the course who you believe are not worth a certificate. You are making a big deal out of something that is very easy and not much worth the paper it is printed on anymore. It is just a formality to go through for most and money in the AHA pocket. It is an okay review for some taking it for the first time. Paramedics should already know this stuff and it just is another way to test them but not much more.

I think you should check out some of my threads on AHA, ACLS, and it's usefulness. (or in my opinion its rather lack of usefulness) but the AHA has mandated that its instructors follow its criteria. It has mandated and sought to enforce the standardization of the class.

An instructor and as such a representative, has actually signed a piece of paper agreeing to follow its dictates. So if you are not, because of your opinion, local practices, etc. then you are in violation of that agreement and subject to censure.

I appreciate your empassioned defense and even recognize your invalid argument as witnessed by the ad hominem attacks, but I don't think you are going to be able to do anything further to effectively demonstrate your point.