EMT-B courses for people under 18

[Code 3]

Not your fault

 

[eynonqrs]

I find nothing wrong with this.

Just recently we had started back our junior program at the service where I volunteer. We have inplace strict SOG's as to what the juniors can and can't do. Also Pennsylvania outlines it as well in the child labor law. Just recently some of our mutual aid companies went up to our high school career day and did get a few members. The service that I volunteer with has been serving the community with pride and dedication for 50+ years. We need to embrace the young that have a desire to do what we do. They are our future to make sure our service is viable for a long time. If we discourage the youngsters, who is going to fill our shoes when we are long retired or can't do it anymore ? I have seen 16 and 17 year olds more mature than 30 and 40 year olds !

 

[Ridryder911]

Just recently we had started back our junior program at the service where I volunteer. We have inplace strict SOG's as to what the juniors can and can't do. Also Pennsylvania outlines it as well in the child labor law. Just recently some of our mutual aid companies went up to our high school career day and did get a few members. The service that I volunteer with has been serving the community with pride and dedication for 50+ years. We need to embrace the young that have a desire to do what we do. They are our future to make sure our service is viable for a long time. If we discourage the youngsters, who is going to fill our shoes when we are long retired or can't do it anymore ? I have seen 16 and 17 year olds more mature than 30 and 40 year olds !

Now really, if your service had been doing so well you would not have to go to a high school to recruit some kids, would you?

Your right the future is that we should encourage our youth, that can be done by providing scholarships and grants for college level EMS courses. That is if you really cared for their future. When they have completed them, they will be educated and be of age to provide care.

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

Now really, if your service had been doing so well you would not have to go to a high school to recruit some kids, would you?

Your right the future is that we should encourage our youth, that can be done by providing scholarships and grants for college level EMS courses. That is if you really cared for their future. When they have completed them, they will be educated and be of age to provide care.

R/r 911

rid is right. If all that is needed of a minor is to sign up and take a quick course, what professional satisfaction will he have in 5 years when all his friends completed college and the summation on education he has is a 110 hour certificate? You are sabotaging these young people by having them join up when they should be concentrating on their own professional futures.

 

[eynonqrs]

First of all our service is not hard up for membership. We started the junior program up again to attract young members back. We just recently got a bunch of junior and senior members that have joined. Going to the high school has been done for a while. There are services that offer scholarship money to junior members that excel in school. There are also SOG's in place that if a student is getting bad grades or in trouble with the school, that person is suspended from the organization until he/she fixes the problem. I would rather see a kid do something useful than causing trouble. There is nothing wrong with this as long as the dept follows the state child labor guidelines and has good SOG's in place.

 

[rogersam5]

There are plenty of people over 18 that are immature (college anyone?)

Hey... I resent that :/

 

[fortsmithman]

I'm not trying to pick apart your post, but I believe this raises a good point:

The age requirement for an LEO is actually 20 1/2 years of age at time of application and 21 years of age at time of academy. This is strictly due to the fact that federal law governs the age at which an individual can carry a sidearm.

I'm Canadian but I thought it was the individual state that dictated who can carry a firearm while as a law enforcement officer.

 

[Ridryder911]

First of all our service is not hard up for membership. We started the junior program up again to attract young members back. We just recently got a bunch of junior and senior members that have joined. Going to the high school has been done for a while. There are services that offer scholarship money to junior members that excel in school. There are also SOG's in place that if a student is getting bad grades or in trouble with the school, that person is suspended from the organization until he/she fixes the problem. I would rather see a kid do something useful than causing trouble. There is nothing wrong with this as long as the dept follows the state child labor guidelines and has good SOG's in place.

If there are so many willing to volunteer, why would one want to recruit kids? Why not offer a scholarship for EMS and then offer a full time position when those graduate, if you really cared for the youth. Sorry, the medical field should not be used as a babysitter and to prevent the youth from getting in trouble or to have something for them to do and doing that is just what you just described.

Is your community willing to shell out the money for infringement of privacy, the monetary price for possible wrong treatment provided by the youth or worse PTSD effects that could be caused by youth responding? This is part of the problem with EMS, most are based upon tradition and no real scientific studies or investigation of what the harm might be. Do you cover workmen's comp and malpractice insurance for those members as well? There are tons of activity the EMS and other organizations can provide to the youth other than attempting to get free labor and the continuation of promoting that.

Unfortunately, many do not recognize health care is a profession. It should have professional standards and take in account that voyeurism is not one of those. I am proud that you sponsor the youth academically, but this does not excuse the need of nothing but adult care provided by adult provider at all times. Just because there is immaturity that still continues in this profession, does not allow or give an excuse to have children exposed to the workforce.

R/r 911

 

[A140160]

I have never seen or heard a more disrespectful, unthinking crowd in my life.

I won't take the time to quote each one individually, but to those of you who think the military is just there to pay for your college or for the benefits, I encourage you to meet some of the men and women of the Marine Corps, or the Army, or anywhere for that matter. They serve with distinction and honor because they believe in something greater than theirselves. If you can't comprehend this, than keep your traps shut and let them continue going about their business securing your freedom to insult them.

As to the original part of this post, I believe we were discussing the age of EMT-B's? In PA, you can be certified at 16. I don't know of a company in the state that will let you run as a fully fledged member until your 18. You can run as 16 or 17 ONLY if you have a senior member of the company with you. You can not be in the back of the ambulance without a senior member with a patient. The purpose of being certified at that age is not to use it as a stepping stone for getting into college or getting a better job, but as the means to help someone in need, should they be called upon to do so, whether in the capacity of an EMT on an ambulance, or as a first responder at a car crash that happened right in front of them. You can not honestly tell me the BS first aid course the Red Cross offers makes you believe they can handle a fully fledged MVA. It will make them crap their pants, nothing more.

Finally, to you who are complaining that under 18's are destroying your field of work, or should be busy studying something else. Are you completely and totally uneducated, or are you just that stupid that you can't realise that 1 or 2 years does not make THAT significant a difference in the maturity of a young man or woman when they have been put through the proper experience and training. I will admit, the brain is not totally developed yet, HOWEVER, this does not mean they can not handle the situation. One only requires the proper instructor to teach one the simple truth of EMS. People die. EMT's try to save them. Sometimes they fail.

Complain and whine at me if you want, call me dumb, even tell me my mother is a goat, I don't care. But never disrespect someone trying to do their best for the world in which they live.

 

[eynonqrs]

And who is to say that 16 and 17 year olds are going to violate HIPPA Laws ? You now as well as I do that adults are just as guilty. Any one that is a member of our organization that violates HIPPA will automaticaly get suspended with no questions asked. We never had problems with junior members. Did any of you ever think to ask these services how they work this ? Apparently not. I am done arguing here. When a service is volunteer or accepts juniors it's all about the bashing, isn't it. I AM DONE.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Ahem...

"5. Learning Identity Versus Identity Diffusion (Fidelity)
During the fifth psychosocial crisis (adolescence, from about 13 or 14 to about 20) the child, now an adolescent, learns how to answer satisfactorily and happily the question of "Who am I?" But even the best - adjusted of adolescents experiences some role identity diffusion: most boys and probably most girls experiment with minor delinquency; rebellion flourishes; self - doubts flood the youngster, and so on."

Source: http://www.faribault.k1.mn.us/data/f...evelopment.pdf

"Recent research by scientists at the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) has found that the teen brain is not a finished product, but is a work in progress. Until recently most scientists believed that the major "wiring" of the brain was completed by as early as three years of age and that the brain was fully mature by the age of 10 or 12. New findings show that the greatest changes to the parts of the brain that are responsible for functions such as self-control, judgment, emotions, and organization occur between puberty and adulthood. This may help to explain certain teenage behavior that adults can find mystifying,
such as poor decision-making, recklessness, and emotional outbursts."

Source: http://www.actforyouth.net/documents...olbraindev.pdf

"In a study aimed at identifying how and when a person's brain reaches adulthood, the scientists have learned that, anatomically, significant changes in brain structure continue after age 18."

""The brain of an 18-year-old college freshman is still far from resembling the brain of someone in their mid-twenties," says Bennett. "When do we reach adulthood? It might be much later than we traditionally think.""

Source: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~news/releases/2006/02/06.html

That is all...

 

[Ridryder911]

Usually, those that support such exposures to children do not think of the long term effects. As well, many (not all) usually also does not see EMS as a profession themselves, so they do not think of anything differently.

There is a reason they do not place or allow children in the surgical arena or in trauma bays to assist, simply because they are kids. We have organizations to monitor what is on music, games, movies to make sure that their exposures is "safe" but yet we, the all great EMS believes it is alright to expose our youth to much graphic violence, potential exposures such as MRSA, and exposure of extreme emotional distraught situations, all in the name of what? It is admitted that they are not needed for staffing and really is not needed to encourage youth to enter the EMS profession, so are we doing it for them or for another reason?

I am sure, I may never change many of the opinions, that's unfortunate. I once was a proud member of medical explorers and developed one of the biggest and most awarding EMS posts as an advisor at one time, so yes I do have experience in this. I also know the potential late side effects. Should we not have scientific studies to dispel or to be sure we are doing the right thing before continuation?

EMS is not alike many of the other related programs where a screening or limitations of involvement or exposures can occur. As well, does the patients have a chance to give permission on whom they are exposed to or information is given to? They are not formal students, they are not really staff members or even have a formal objective except to ride along and view what is performed. Again, voyeurism. I still ask does these EMS provide workman's comp and malpractice insurance? There is always accidents that occur even with the best and most experienced, who would be responsible? ... The organization, the parents? Could either afford a half million dollar litigation? Does the EMS carrier realize that these are not licensed or certified providers? You see, there is far more to it than just simply having someone "ride along". Along with being a profession is the responsibilities of that no matter paid or volunteer.

R/r 911

 

[bmennig]

I agree with most posts here, in Pa one can become an EMT at 16, which in my opinion is stupid. You can't be "unsupervised" until your 18 so what difference does it make if your 16 and an EMT? aside from gaining and using parts of your knowledge it's pointless (if your 16, you are still a child, sucks but it's true). I know very mature 16 year olds, I was one myself however I'm not an advocate for the state on having 16 year old EMT's. I certainly agree that 18 should be the earliest somebody can become an EMT. I have no problem's with people riding along, if your curious about becoming part of the profession or are involved with it. I think more of it should be done with the 911 system... if your a plain jane dispatcher with no experience in the field, a ride along to see what you dispatch is a fantasic idea. It certainly makes you a better dispatcher. I agree with Rid in regards to the insurance/malpractice issues. It's a question that has to be raised if your orginization takes part in the ride along stuff. My agency personally doesn't let people ride along, however, some in my area do.

 

[KB1MZR]

I'm 17 and got into EMS when I was 14 so don't let anyone shoot you down. I took a first aid class at 12. Then I went and got CT's Medical Response Technician at 14 which is equivelant to a first responder in other states, 14 is the minimum age for that certification. Then, at 15 I enrolled in my EMT class which I completed shortly after turning 16 and CT lets you become and EMT-B at 16, you just have to take the NREMT assessment test and get the results, you don't get your NREMT Cert. but you get the CT Cert.

 

[rmellish]

Indiana's minimum age for EMTB certification is 18, and I'm glad. I couldn't imagine 16 year old EMTs running around. 15 year old FRs are bad enough.

I know I was a hell of a lot better prepared to be an EMT at 18 than I would have been at 16, and that's simply due to maturity. Two years and a high school diploma changes your outlook a bit.

 

[Shishkabob]

I know I was a hell of a lot better prepared to be an EMT at 18 than I would have been at 16, and that's simply due to maturity. Two years and a high school diploma changes your outlook a bit.

So we should base an entire age specification based solely off of your experience?


Really, whats the difference between 17 and 18 aside from 1 day? Do you instantly get more mature because you made it to 12:00:00 on your 18th birthday?

 

[rmellish]

So we should base an entire age specification based solely off of your experience?


Really, whats the difference between 17 and 18 aside from 1 day? Do you instantly get more mature because you made it to 12:00:00 on your 18th birthday?

Easy now....

I suppose I'm making an inductive argument, but I can only cite personal experience; two years, graduating high school, and having more personal responsibilities did make me a more responsible person. So, anecdotally I was far better prepared to start working in EMS at 18 than I would have been at 16. Is this true for everyone? Of course not. I know some who are 25 and not prepared to function professionally. Go figure.

It would certainly be a bit ridiculous to make a concrete measure of an abstract concept such as maturity based solely on the concrete concept of age. So if you're baiting me here, it's not worth it. Of course we shouldn't generalize my experience to form a universal standard.

However, do we really want those legally considered minors treating the sick and injured? I know I don't, but it's a reality where I live.

 

[Shishkabob]

17 isn't considered a minor, yet you want the limit to be 18. Why is that?


(I know my tone is coming off as unfriendly, but that's text. Trust me, no offenses meant... and to prove it, here's a face! )

 

[Ridryder911]

17 isn't considered a minor, yet you want the limit to be 18. Why is that?


(I know my tone is coming off as unfriendly, but that's text. Trust me, no offenses meant... and to prove it, here's a face! )

17 not a minor?... Excuse me, but don't try to be seen by an ER with a sore throat without parent's permission unless you are married or have been awarded deceleration of being on your own. Seventeen is still considered to be a minor.

R/r 911

 

[reaper]

Yes, last I checked 17 was still a minor!