Regarding the original post, it's all the more reason to embrace and promote collective bargaining and/or strong political influence - to bring up EMS salaries to a livable wage for that region. We won't have to work two or three jobs anymore just to break even. Don't listen to the education Nazis who like to tell you that you don't deserve a liveable wage with the current state of EMS education. You can better your bottom line much quicker through organization rather than waiting education reform to drive salaries upward. Don't hold your breath. The increased education thing can come later on. The bills need to get paid.
EMS and Unions
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Ridryder911
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Show me the money! Where is the funding going to magically appear from? That's all fine. Now, explain HOW you are going to obtain the money for funding?
Again, for some reason simple logic cannot apply. What does not come in cannot go out!
If you want to form a union .. good so be it, but realize in time of economic troubles raising taxes is not even a dream and the reality is that it will be cut not increased. Money does not magically appear because a profession becomes unionized or have collective bargaining; just ask the air traffic control operators or many other jobs that can and should be contracted out.
The system in the majority of EMS providers is based upon fees collected by patient charges as per received by Medicare and Insurance providers. Those fees are based upon the services and those person(s) that provide those services. If such services were in demand and only could be given by competent and qualified providers that require formal education and expertise, then yes (alike all other medical speciality providers) will and would receive appropriate compensation.
Actually, most EMS gets paid way too much for what they provide. A non formally educated EMT or Paramedic with a few hundred hour course work with little to no expertise clinical skills, that provides first aid and a taxi ride. Pretty good scam for a couple week course and driving a person a few blocks.
Believe it or not, very few health care professionals unionize. No need to and it is usually frowned upon by true professionals. Their profession is soundly based upon their expertise and the required need that they are able to provide and then be compensated for.
I am all in favor of uniting to increase the need for better conditions, but the old saying should first be pointed out. If you want to be paid and treated as a professional, then one should have met those professional standards and just flocking together is not one of them.
R/r 911
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I believe that this has been addressed several times before. Emergency services, namely EMS, fire, and police are vital, and need to be funded regardless of revenue generated by each respective agency. To follow your reasoning, EMS should be paid minimum wage, and police/fire should work for free. Cut salaries for fire and police and see what quality of recruits will be applying for work.
NYPD used to pay recruits a base of 25,000/yr to start, and $32,000/yr after 6 months post academy. Their top out was like 50 or 60 grand, but you're making peanuts until 5 years in. their applicant pool dropped dramatically, and the quality of the recruits was noticeably poor. Attrition was high as well, with most other PD's paying much better. This is what they're being paid now:
http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_BenefitsOverview.aspx
People like you are a main reason that unions were formed in the first place. having a union may not produce a dramatic improvement in salary initially, but not having one is a guarantee that salaries will be kept down.
I hope that others read your post about EMS being overpaid and are highly offended by it. As someone who is supposedly pro EMS, you should be ashamed for yourself.
Strength in unity. Simple as that.
You speak like a true company man. You must be in upper management. That explains why you feel EMS is overpaid, and are obviously anti-union.
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How many non union healthcare jobs have a pension? That can be as important if not more important than current salary. Many NYC RN's belong to the 1199. Others belong to NYC HHC. Others still work for the state, and receive a pension as well. My friend working at SUNY Stonybrook started at 65,000/yr after completing the Excelsior medic-RN bridge program. Loves it.
How many college grads are tending bar, waiting tables, or working at Starbucks due to lack of job opportunity? A degree is not the end all and be all for employment. EMS should have a more comprehensive educational program, but waiting 15, 20, 30 years or more for things to get better isn't going to cut it for the single mom, or the laid off office employee who turned their EMS hobby into a career.
How much education would be needed anyway? I can't see too much more than a two year degree with maybe a few pre-reqs prior being needed. For medics to be able to operate at a higher scope than we are now, we would need CT's, blood work, x-rays and such to determine an appropriate Tx course. This would require at least a PA's level of education, if not an attending MD, if not a specialist. These tests would also require more time than it would take to txp.
I could see going over two years for critical care and flight medic training, though.
For union benefit, look at FDNY EMS. They're not paid too well, but they're certainly doing better than they have in the past. the city used to sit on a prior contract for several years post expiration, with no raises or COLAs in The interim. They've been recently granted uniform status as well. With the budget crisis, NYC wanted to lay off EMS jobs and give spots to local hospitals. Didn't happen, not even a slight chance.
I've said it before, if there's a union shop in the area, other agencies will need to offer a more attractive hiring package so as not to lose the best talent to the union agency. Having a union will allow the agency to be more selective in hiring, thereby giving them the cream of the crop.
The lone employee is up against a formidable opponent in regards to salary/benefits/grievences/retirement and all. The union levels the playing field, gives the employee real negotiating power, and forces management to aknowledge their demands and concerns, and come to a compromise. If you're "at will", you're basically powerless to force change at your agency.
Unions aren't only good for $$$'s. Working conditions, schedules/work hours, job description, leave policies, mandatory OT and other things are also addressed, where without a union they may not be.
As far as contracting out EMS, you get what you pay for. I'm sure there are many examples of private 911 providers who have poor pt care (pulse and a patch), an understaffed fleet, mismanagement, so on and so forth? For one example, how about the Richmond Ambulance Authority giving the privates the boot and assuming full responsibility for EMS delivery?
How many college grads are tending bar, waiting tables, or working at Starbucks due to lack of job opportunity? A degree is not the end all and be all for employment. EMS should have a more comprehensive educational program, but waiting 15, 20, 30 years or more for things to get better isn't going to cut it for the single mom, or the laid off office employee who turned their EMS hobby into a career.
How much education would be needed anyway? I can't see too much more than a two year degree with maybe a few pre-reqs prior being needed. For medics to be able to operate at a higher scope than we are now, we would need CT's, blood work, x-rays and such to determine an appropriate Tx course. This would require at least a PA's level of education, if not an attending MD, if not a specialist. These tests would also require more time than it would take to txp.
I could see going over two years for critical care and flight medic training, though.
For union benefit, look at FDNY EMS. They're not paid too well, but they're certainly doing better than they have in the past. the city used to sit on a prior contract for several years post expiration, with no raises or COLAs in The interim. They've been recently granted uniform status as well. With the budget crisis, NYC wanted to lay off EMS jobs and give spots to local hospitals. Didn't happen, not even a slight chance.
I've said it before, if there's a union shop in the area, other agencies will need to offer a more attractive hiring package so as not to lose the best talent to the union agency. Having a union will allow the agency to be more selective in hiring, thereby giving them the cream of the crop.
The lone employee is up against a formidable opponent in regards to salary/benefits/grievences/retirement and all. The union levels the playing field, gives the employee real negotiating power, and forces management to aknowledge their demands and concerns, and come to a compromise. If you're "at will", you're basically powerless to force change at your agency.
Unions aren't only good for $$$'s. Working conditions, schedules/work hours, job description, leave policies, mandatory OT and other things are also addressed, where without a union they may not be.
As far as contracting out EMS, you get what you pay for. I'm sure there are many examples of private 911 providers who have poor pt care (pulse and a patch), an understaffed fleet, mismanagement, so on and so forth? For one example, how about the Richmond Ambulance Authority giving the privates the boot and assuming full responsibility for EMS delivery?
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medic417
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Lots. Unions are not the only way to get quality pay and benefits. Plus many places have learned that they can get and keep quality people by giving decent pay and benefits thus saving money in the long run.
Read the thread on South Carolina EMS and "at will" wmployees. Salary isn't the only factor by far.
medic417
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I've seen union shops that might as well be pimp services. Sorry the union is no guarantee of great pay, benefits, and treatment.
As well, the $200 dollars saved each month by not paying unions dues adds up.
Most, if not all 911 municipal EMS in the Carolinas have state retirement, but you're only making 30 or 40k as a base. Working conditions, benefits, holidays, leave policies, schedules, forced OT vary. Collective bargaining allows the employees to negotiate those terms as a whole. When "at will", the employer can change the rules however they want, and the working stiff is powerless to stop it.
medic417
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Again most quality employers have learned that it is cheaper to pay decent, give good benefits, treat their people good than it is to keep training new people and to pay for law suits.
Ridryder911
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Everybody sing along !.. You can trust the union label... oh, sorry; got carried away by all the union promotion.
Unions have their place. If that is what it takes, so be it. Definitely needed in some areas as a last resort. Personally I only belonged to the FOP while as a tactical medic and seen nothing but dues being sucked out of my pay check. Went back to the private sector that had retirement and insurance and pay without me paying someone to get it for me.
I do admit, I do love the nurses that unionize, especially when they strike. It's the easiest $ 75-100/hr gig. Hospitals realize they will have to have them back and the union will settle for less than what is asked for. Meanwhile it will pay for me some toys.
Unions were very strong in my area but lately corporations have found it is as easy to hire out or locating the company elsewhere in another country. Yeah, thanks. Paying someone $25/hr for changing a lightbulb tends reduce opportunities. Again, someone will have to pay for it (the consumer).
No, I believe EMS should be getting very high salaries. That is when and if they become a professional and demonstrated they have earned it. Just because someone shows up for work does not automatically make them a great employee or a professional. Again, what requirements and special skills or education level have you brought into the agency? Other than attending an academy or 16 week class, does that person deserve to making above entry level salary? Does those that never promote upward in educational and within the profession deserve to gain raises as well, just because they did their job?
Does those that choose not to participate and not promote themselves get the same raise?
So let's shift the tax burden on more as more and more become unemployed or how about looking at what Austin EMS did? Hmmm.... refused to take a full increase in pay to help out their citizens. Which do you think has the best interest in heart of the community?
R/r 911
The pension in unions is not always the best. I believe either NYSNA (another NYC RN union) or 1199 just lost millions of dollars alone this year. Meaning they are deep trouble. Some of the workers are afraid that they cant retire now, and from my experience most people (non-RN healthcare workers) hate the union as it does nothing for them only take the union dues. 1199 ironically has one of the worst insurance coverage I've seen.
However they get paid well up here. After 5 years (without over time) you can be making a little less than double what a FDNY paramedic makes after 5 years.
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Actually, the hospitals may not be so quick to take them back. In fact last year in CA when one group of RNs struck, the hospitals locked out the nurses for another 3 days after the union declared the strike was over. Now, that union has not even given a thought to striking this year. The nurses at the non union hospitals are chuckling each time a union hospital strikes since they make money from the OT and have the same competitive wages without the union dues and the mandatory stipulations placed on union members by their own union which is not always in the favor of education or hard work for advancement. The union hospitals also have not had any problem getting staff from agencies and neighboring hospitals. Now, with the influx of older nurses returning to the work force and younger RNs graduating with BSNs, there are willing candidates to replace the striking staff. Thus, the unions are picking their battles much more carefully.
At least with nursing, their unions are specialized for nurses and supportive of education overall. It is not like some EMS unions where they are a spin off of a Plumbers and Piperfitters union where there is no interest in EMS as a profession. They are just drawing up a generic contract and changing the title for what ever group of employees they are resprenting.
In CA, even the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) unions averted a strike although they threatened. However, it was the public they were threatening and creating more problems for than the BART management. In just a couple of hours when one union anounced they wanted a strike over 2000 people wrote the local news website in rage at the unions. The general public now view unions and its members as selfish. The unions are no longer popular after incidents as in the Vallejo backruptcy and the little city of Alameda's financial problems. Yet, the FD union there stay in the public eye with their petitions and carrying signs in front of shopping areas for better benefits, more money and more employees even after they are noted to be the best staffed department in CA with a very low call volume.
reaper
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If you spend more then a few months in a state, you may realize that not all systems are the same. State retirement is good. I get good pay, good schedule, good system and go home after 12 hrs. I have no forced overtime, ever!
I would never work a system that was unionized. They ruin good systems fast. It is the employer that makes the difference, not the union.
From your examples, why is it that FF's all work 2-3 jobs, just to get by. If the union is doing so good for them, they should not need the other jobs. I have never seen a union service, fire or EMS, that had it any better then the systems I have worked. Except for the union dues they lose every month!
From your examples, why is it that FF's all work 2-3 jobs, just to get by. If the union is doing so good for them, they should not need the other jobs. I have never seen a union service, fire or EMS, that had it any better then the systems I have worked. Except for the union dues they lose every month![/QUOTE] Where this at?, I can assure down here in southern Cali nobody is working 2-3 jobs to get by.
[/QUOTE] Where this at?, I can assure down here in southern Cali nobody is working 2-3 jobs to get by..Where this at?, I can assure down here in southern Cali nobody is working 2-3 jobs to get by.
But you have stated in previous posts that you are averaging well over 3000 hours per year and barely making a decent living for California.
I do Okay, what's decent, I own my house and work maybe 12 days a month 2 of them are OT, so the norm I would have 20 days off a month to play. the union is good for us down here, I know unions are not for everyone.
Yeah, I can see how the whole "We don't need a union, we're okay with being at will employees" thing is working for you:
"Now after saying that these same great Paramedics have caused much harm to payroll. In my area when we approach the city and county for pay raises they always throw it in our face that people do this for free, so why should we pay you more. Sadly the community of those Paramedics is in a better financial shape to pay than any of the other services I am involved with. You know the reason they have not gone paid? They are high paid professionals that use volly EMS for a tax write off. So because they insist on staying volly I and all the other professionals get lower wages so they can have their tax write off. That is not fair".
That was written by you, my friend. If you had collective bargaining, you would be in a better position to correct that situation. But instead, all you can do is rant about it on an internet forum. Powerless to change your reality.
Apparently from my own observations as well as numerous posts on EMS forums, that's more the exception than the rule. I once started a thread here asking people to post any quality EMS agencies that they might know of. The thread didn't do so well.
One such place of which you describe is the North Shore LIJ Center for EMS. Great pay, benefits, working conditions, schedules, 403b with 6% match, NYC 911 or IFT depending on the shift. No pension, and a lack of opportunity for upward mobility at CEMS, but great opportunity in other areas of the health system.
Even with all of the positives, there was still fairly high medic attrition. Some left to be flight medics in other states, some went to the FDNY, some to FDNY EMS, some to union 911 EMS providing hospitals, some became RN's, some went into emergency management, some became PA's, some became cops. Four of us (including myself) became Fairfax County firemedics. We all left for better opportunities.
If you spend more then a few months in a state, you may realize that not all systems are the same. State retirement is good. I get good pay, good schedule, good system and go home after 12 hrs. I have no forced overtime, ever!
I would never work a system that was unionized. They ruin good systems fast. It is the employer that makes the difference, not the union.
From your examples, why is it that FF's all work 2-3 jobs, just to get by. If the union is doing so good for them, they should not need the other jobs. I have never seen a union service, fire or EMS, that had it any better then the systems I have worked. Except for the union dues they lose every month!
Maybe your employer is one in a million or something. We went over what can happen if an employee is "at will" at the South Carolina thread.
I've also written that having a union in place in a certain region will require non union employers to sweeten the pot to lure the best talent. The indirect effect. You've just validated that for me.
Maybe FF's in the Carolina's need to work several jobs to make ends meet. not hard to understand when they're getting 8 bucks an hour. Maybe collective bargaining can help with that
I work several jobs because I want to pay off my car, buy a house, pay it off quick, take vacations, etc. To improve my quality of life. FF's in Northern Va and MD are getting around 50k give or take to start. FDNY FF's get 68k or so after 5 years. Phoenix FF's get mid 40's to start, CA FF's get way more. In each case, they're doing at least as well if not better than many college grads, without the requisite time investment. I don't see that in the Southeast. I don't see unions there, either.