Discussion in 'EMS Talk' started by ffemt8978, Nov 13, 2007.
thats very interesting.
Clarifying the Duty to Act Thing Minnesota EMT-B
I went to church last saturday, and I had a 49 year old female PT who went into a syncopal episode. And I am a EMT-B and Licensed for the state of Minnesota! and I of course rendered aid to the PT. But if I did not. Could I be held liable for abandonment if I did not help the PT?:unsure:
Some states have clauses where if you are identified you do( so I have read here)
Nope. Abandonment means you begin care then stop providing care against the patient's wishes.. Didn't you go over that in EMT class?
How would someone prove the person was certified?
Duty to act in South Africa
No sure if this is specific to any country of region?
In South Africa as a "qualified practitioner" you have a legal duty and obligation to assist in an emergency regardless of whether you are on duty or not.
I live in Florida and this question came up a few times in my EMT class and again last night in my Medic class. From what the instructor (who is a retiring rescue LT for alachua county fire rescue) stated "Florida does not actually have a duty to act unless you are on the job. Once you are on the clock it dont matter if the person called for help or not you have a duty to act. Also in the case of say a hurricane and you get deployed to another area we get paid the entire time we are in that area. So even though you might be technically off duty to rest since you are still on the clock you have a duty to act. If just going home from your normal shift and there is a accident you do not have to stop (no duty to act) but if you stop to even ask if they are ok now patient abandonment comes into play." Now he also advised that if you see a crash on your way home and dont want to help he strongly advised not to even call 911. Just keep going as if you never seen it. As cold hearted as it sounds its to cover your *** because there is a gray area as far as he was concerned as calling 911 could one day (with a good lawyer) be considered patient abandonment as you did start patient care by calling for help or as it could be defined as backup and since you most likely used your cell phone they can trace it back to you.
Must resist the urge to smack a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:... meh, why not.
Why in the world would you not call 911? Are you that afraid of a lawsuit, that you would rather drive past a wreck and hope some other helpless bystander manages to give a decent description? Google the bystander effect.
Getting sued for calling 911? That is complete and utter bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. Cover your ***? Really? Are you even remotely aware of the laws in your state, or do you just trust this "rescue LT" blindly. Maybe try and find an EMT instructor with an actual interest in helping people even when they're not on fire. Read back over this thread, just for a minute, and edumacate yurself. You call 911, you do not identify yourself (Im bubba and I have my national registry card, wanna see it Ms dispatcher?), and you give an accurate description of the location.
I have more to say, but I'll leave room for others, err, constructive feedback.
Did you ask your badass Rescue Life-Saver fire truck driving ultimate super hero of an instructor what you should do if you pass a structure fire? Im willing to be there's a slightly different answer...
( this is a system failure... Not yours op)
It's nice that people have a NRP, or RN or MD or FF after their name ..... It doesn't mean I am going to blindly follow/believe you without question.
Question and verify was my motto through medic school.
it sounds like you have a lot of self study on your hands as your program/school utterly failed you in this case.
Yup, my frustration is directed thru you at your instructor, not at you.
I said IF you dont want to stop then you should probnably just keep going (yes it sounds cold) that ONE DAY (does not mean today but lawsuits and laws are not getting better for us) you could get in trouble for it That does not mean today but one day if he is right someone could get burned. See some states have a duty to act while off duty I think he was referring to the fact it will probably come into law here ONEDAY. Now I could see doing something if you are in a rural area. Alachua County is in Gainesville (ever heard of UF, the gators) it is very heavily populated area so just because you didnt pick up the phone and call are you truly that thick to think that no one else will really? I know its a messed up world hence why we have to cover our asses all the time. Now say you want to play hero and stop to help. You have no gear, probably no gloves in the car (I at least carry gloves for other reasons) nothing. What is it you actually plan on doing but standing there. all you can do is help the walking wounded and possibly pull people from a burning car (rapid extraction). So yeah you could play hero in certain cases but a typical roll over 1 driver badly hurt going into shock. Honestly what can you do with out jeopardizing your own health?
Also you might want to lower your tone a little I dont claim to be an expert (I think student is on my profile) I was just responding to a thread off what I heard in matter of law in Florida. Not there is no duty to act unless you are on the job. I did not 1 time state anything that I would personally do given I was in that situation as I dont know.
No one here is advocating Ricky rescue behaviour.
I rarely stop at wrecks. Not much you can do without a kit treatment wise but you can get accurate information to dispatch and calm and reassure a pt all without saying you are an Emt or medic. Where I am once you identify yourself or you are recognized as a medic you have a duty to act unless there are other responders on scene.
If you want to drive by an accident fine. If you want to drive by an accident and not call 911 because you think you will be sued... Well I honestly don't know what to say besides your EMS program utterly failed you. Don't take it personal.... Most others are like yours( mine included). Which I why I made the comment above about question and verify.
and I agree with you here I did not say not to call 911. He didnt even say not to. He just advised that one day it will eventually come to the point where we will be required to stop. If that will be true or not hell I dont know. I personally dont see how as I dont always even have a phone on me to call if I wanted to. All I wanted to do was point out what current laws are in Florida. I probably should not have entered they did teach us to leaving opinions out of reports as it can lead to bad juju. Plus he is retireing because he is burned out but a damn good medic.
Ok, you got me, you never did say not to call 911.
But you also kinda missed:
Now, on a different note...
Back on topic:
The gators? Like alligators? They can use phones in Florida? Damn, y'all really do have it different down there.
Actually, I never said that, you can quote me on it, if I haven't already.
And finally, one for the road:
He's a burned out damn good medic who tells his students not to call 911 when they pass a wreck...
About that reading comprehension, what's the present progressive of "retire"?
Medic Tim, maybe my new favorite image...
haha look I was typing as you posted that so sorry. I thought you directed it at me.
as far as reading comprehension goes this was about you not me. I already know I am an idiot (kind of why I am a student) :rofl:
Sorry for the head bump but guess what we have here is failure to communicate.
It's all good bruh, but I gotta have some fun when I can.
As far as being deployed to help in a hurricane, yes you are on duty but you most of the time have an assignment that you have to get to. I was part of a team that flew from CA to Ohio and then drove code 3 (lights and sirens) to New Jersey (we didn't get a choice on how to respond). We passed by a couple of semi tucks that had flipped over because of winds. Our policy was to call our communication center, call 911, and keep on driving.
Yeah I have never been on a deployment and hoping I wont but location does not tip the odds in my favor. Its all good though I love to help others. I just know from going through hurricane Andrew in homestead was rough. I was young then but could not imagine what they went through. 911 and many more events I am sure will stay with you forever. I have only had 2 people not make it on me and I remember both but the memories are slowly fading as I know I did (aswell as the whole crew that day) did everything I could do and left no thoughts of well what if, but those days like that I dont think would ever leave. God bless you man.
LACoGurneyjockey its all good to poke fun at dumb stuff I post (it wont be the last) just expect something in response because it will be coming.
First off, get your EMT - YES
Second off, don't get a trauma kit - Agreed they are for wacker's
Third, only stop if it JUST occurred, and there are dead and dying everywhere - Disagree
IMO Everyone and their mother has a cell phone now a days, keep driving, dial 911, and make sure it has been reported. Hang up and drive on. What care you are going to be able to render in your off time, functioning out of your POV, with your whacker EMS kit that has bandaids and quickclot which you stole from your volunteer house is very limited. The patient's are either going to be BLS, which do not require your services while you are off duty, or jacked the hell up in which case also not much you are going to be able to do for them, so why stop......
Now a days people are sue happy and if someone dies, or has a non-favorable outcome, they are looking to place blame on someone and get paid. Why even put yourself in the remote possibility. Regardless what the law says, anyone can name anybody in a lawsuit, and at that point even though the law is on your side, and you may be covered, you still need an attorney to represent and fight BS claim. Who's gonna pay for that? Your employer.... NOPE..... You think your medical direction is going to cover you for care rendered off duty.....Most will not.
So with that being said, tuck the tail and save yourself the hassle.
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