Dozens Ignored a Man Dying on a Sidewalk in Queens, NY

"die (while) falling out of the chair I am sitting on now."
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Would it not be "after falling out of the chair"? Normally it's the sudden stop at the bottom and not the fall itself that kills. ;)

(Nice catch on the poor sentence structure.)
 
usafmedic45 said:
There are very few things that one can truly kill someone in a matter of a few minutes and can be fixed without carrying equipment with you.
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You must not be much of a paramedic if you can't even manage to do BASIC LIFE SUPPORT without 'equipment.' I don't know about your basic (or intermediate or paramedic) classes, but in my basic class I learned all about DIRECT PRESSURE on a wound. Yeah, that one requires a LOT of equipment.
 
wolfwyndd said:
You must not be much of a paramedic if you can't even manage to do BASIC LIFE SUPPORT without 'equipment.' I don't know about your basic (or intermediate or paramedic) classes, but in my basic class I learned all about DIRECT PRESSURE on a wound. Yeah, that one requires a LOT of equipment.
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If they're bleeding at a rate in which they are going to die within a few minutes, usually you need more than direct pressure.
 
wolfwyndd said:
You must not be much of a paramedic if you can't even manage to do BASIC LIFE SUPPORT without 'equipment.' I don't know about your basic (or intermediate or paramedic) classes, but in my basic class I learned all about DIRECT PRESSURE on a wound. Yeah, that one requires a LOT of equipment.
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Withot taking sides could I point out that just because you stop external bleeding, doesn't mean you stop the flow of blood.

"Direct pressure" will stop about 90% of all bleeding, but that doesn't translate into diffuse external pressure. If you have bleeding from the trunk or neck, your external pressure will simply redirect the bleeding. Direct pressure to the artery could be effective, but you are definately going to get dirty doing that.

There is also a considerable risk/benefit. If this person arrests from their trauma, their chances of survival are very small if everything goes right. So how to you live the rest of your life with Hep B Hep C or something else? Who pays for your care? Who retrains you to work in another profession when you can't get a job? What will it be like to never have intimate contact with loved ones without a barrier between you? What will it be like when you worry whether or not you can safely help your bleeding child for fear of infecting them? How about even having a child who may start life with a communicable disease? How do you pay for the life long care? How do you explain to them they have to be careful whoever and how they touch forever?

You are going to risk that over a person who will most likely die? Maybe you will get a plaque or a citation for your efforts, but nobody is going to step up and pay your medical bills.

Personally I think there is a moral obligation to do the best we can to help somebody in need. But the best we can means safely. with objective thought and rational logic not emotion.

But my morals also do not impose decisions upon others, and that includes their will to get involved or not.

For many years and hopefully for many to come, most if not all of my patients have been socially "undesirable." It is a rewarding experience. But it is not for everyone. It doesn't make me a greater provider or somebody else a lesser one.

Maybe watching people drink their urine like beer or be so drunk they lay in their own excretions until they wake up and find some more alcohol has hardend me a bit, some would call it experience. But some of that same experence has harshly pointed out that I cannot save everyone.

Most EMTs and paramedics will never look a patient in the eye and tell them no more can be done while they are still awake and capable of rational thought. They will not be asked "how much longer is there?" when they simply cannot afford care or medication. Even the most well paid physicians cannot afford to support everyone who needs.

I bring that up because it is the real face of medicine, not lights and sirens and flag drapped ceremonies and awards. It is not CPR and AEDs with a happy ending. It is important to come to terms with what medicine is, and what your individual role, contributions, and limitations are.

"he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day."

EMS is not about being a hero or glory. Medicine is a choice and a lifestyle. But what that means to you is not the same as me, and you cannot measure the value of others by standards you set for yourself.
 
wolfwyndd said:
You must not be much of a paramedic if you can't even manage to do BASIC LIFE SUPPORT without 'equipment.' I don't know about your basic (or intermediate or paramedic) classes, but in my basic class I learned all about DIRECT PRESSURE on a wound. Yeah, that one requires a LOT of equipment.
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Actually he's not a medic :P He's an intermediate.

And if I had something to throw them so they can put pressure on their own wound I would. But I ain't touchin them if they're bleeding and I have no form of PPE.
Either way I'd call for help on a phone, but if they can't put pressure there themselves they'll have to wait for someone else to show up. Maybe I can use the sparky wacker to do it for me.
 
How about you try actually reading what I said? I said there are few things that will rapidly kill someone that are amenable to first aid. Direct pressure does- to be done safely- require gloves. I'm not sticking my hands of the blood of anyone I'm not particularly fond of (and even then...) without gloves on. There are very few circumstances where you get that degree of bleeding that do not meet:

If they're bleeding at a rate in which they are going to die within a few minutes, usually you need more than direct pressure.
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Any more smartass comments or have you realized how foolish you sound?

He's an intermediate.
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Yup. That's right. I never said I was a paramedic. I was a "medic" in the military and an EMT-I before and after my service.
 
It seems pretty simple to me. Off duty its personal decision. I wouldnt look down upon anyone who decided against stepping in. I also commend people who choose to get involved ultimatly its personal choice.

Rare occasions a bystander will have the ability to "save a life." The truth is not that many emergencies are life threatning or at least whithin the reach of a bystander.
 
Hypothetical situation

Lets play a game:

you are a cop. you are off duty. while you are walking home, you walk past a bodega, and when you look inside you see two men armed with guns (one shot gun, one handgun) robbing the place, demanding money from the clerk. You are not in uniform, don't have a sidearm on you, no vest, all you have is your ID/badge in your pocket. Would you intervene? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?

second game:

you are a firefighter. you are off duty. while walking home, you walk past a taxpayer (store on 1st fl, apartments on 2nd), and find a lot of smoke puffing out of the store. when you touch the door/windows, they are really hot. the lights are on on the second floor, indicating that there are occupants, and they are unaware of what is happening on the first floor. you have no equipment, no PPE, all you have is your ID/badge, are you going to make entry into the 1st floor to get to the second floor to notify the occupants? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?

Inquiring minds want to know
 
DrParasite said:
Lets play a game:

you are a cop. you are off duty. while you are walking home, you walk past a bodega, and when you look inside you see two men armed with guns (one shot gun, one handgun) robbing the place, demanding money from the clerk. You are not in uniform, don't have a sidearm on you, no vest, all you have is your ID/badge in your pocket. Would you intervene? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?
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A cop is a cop 24/7. If they are unarmed, the only choice is to call for back up and stay out of the way.


second game:

you are a firefighter. you are off duty. while walking home, you walk past a taxpayer (store on 1st fl, apartments on 2nd), and find a lot of smoke puffing out of the store. when you touch the door/windows, they are really hot. the lights are on on the second floor, indicating that there are occupants, and they are unaware of what is happening on the first floor. you have no equipment, no PPE, all you have is your ID/badge, are you going to make entry into the 1st floor to get to the second floor to notify the occupants? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?
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Yes you would call 911 and try to alert the occupants.

What would PPE do in either case?
 
DrParasite said:
Lets play a game:

you are a cop. you are off duty. while you are walking home, you walk past a bodega, and when you look inside you see two men armed with guns (one shot gun, one handgun) robbing the place, demanding money from the clerk. You are not in uniform, don't have a sidearm on you, no vest, all you have is your ID/badge in your pocket. Would you intervene? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?

second game:

you are a firefighter. you are off duty. while walking home, you walk past a taxpayer (store on 1st fl, apartments on 2nd), and find a lot of smoke puffing out of the store. when you touch the door/windows, they are really hot. the lights are on on the second floor, indicating that there are occupants, and they are unaware of what is happening on the first floor. you have no equipment, no PPE, all you have is your ID/badge, are you going to make entry into the 1st floor to get to the second floor to notify the occupants? or would you just call the on duty people who are properly equipped to handle the situation?

Inquiring minds want to know
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First scenario: Hell no, I'm not going in. What am I going to do with my badge? It's not one of those cool video game invincibility upgrades. I'll call 911 and get out posthaste. Hang around an obtain a description if I can, but probably not. But I'm not a cop, so I don't know what a cop would do.

Second: If I knew enough about fire to deem it was safe enough to enter I would after calling 911. Otherwise, call 911 and try some way to alert the occupants. Yelling fire, maybe? Throwing rocks at the windows while yelling fire? I don't know. I'm not a firefighter, so I don't know what a firefighter would do.

EDIT to add: A cop going ANYWHERE without his gun is a cop I never want to be around. They have the "right" to carry (which I believe is a right of man, but that is a discussion for another time) so they should be armed ALWAYS. In those life or death situations where a dude's coming at you with a crowbar and the seconds really count, the police are only minutes away.
 
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Bottom line, those who are trained to act must figure out when and how much, according to the circumstances, and then live with their decision.

No one has written the definitive Rule Book.
 
firetender said:
Bottom line, those who are trained to act must figure out when and how much, according to the circumstances, and then live with their decision.

No one has written the definitive Rule Book.
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[/thread]

Should have happened a long time ago.
 
so in response to my scenario (which received fewer responses than I had hoped) both people say that as trained professionals in other public safety fields, they would call for the properly equipped and on duty personnel to deal with the life threatening situation, and not place themselves in undue harm.

So, if that is the general consensus, what makes EMS so different that they should do something different than what the other public safety agencies would do?
 
DrParasite said:
so in response to my scenario (which received fewer responses than I had hoped) both people say that as trained professionals in other public safety fields, they would call for the properly equipped and on duty personnel to deal with the life threatening situation, and not place themselves in undue harm.

So, if that is the general consensus, what makes EMS so different that they should do something different than what the other public safety agencies would do?
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I think the only difference is that dangers may not be so readily apparent at the time of the incident. While the police officer runs the risk of being shot, the FF runs the risk of burning up, the EMT runs the risk of contracting a pathogen. In the heat of the moment, the lack of an immediate danger might be all that some people look for. I don't feel this is a good excuse, but it seems like a plausible one.
 
what makes EMS so different that they should do something different than what the other public safety agencies would do?
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Firefighters don't fight fire or (unless insane) run into the burning or smoke filled part of buildings to pull people out when not properly equipped or off duty. I would have suspended any of my firefighters I caught doing something that stupid.

Most LEOs are required to carry guns with them while off duty. When they are not carrying, they notify the local dispatch and remain safe until other officers arrive. No public safety profession encourages its members to respond unless properly equipped. Since we are not required to carry our gear with us 24-7, we can not be expected to respond, especially when we are not carrying PPE with us. Our utility, as much as we like to believe to the contrary, in the minority of cases where a five to ten minute delay is going to make a significant difference in outcome is in large part due to the equipment on board our ambulance or rescue truck.

We are not different from any public safety agency.

In the heat of the moment, the lack of an immediate danger might be all that some people look for.
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In the heat of the moment, a lot of us don't look at all before rushing head long into "helping" apparently.

BTW, I actually assisted at the scene of a car accident today. It was a fender bender next to the location of an outdoor wedding I was attending and the worst injury was a little kid with a busted lip, but I still offered assistance.
 
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DrParasite said:
actually, there are many conflicting witness accounts of what was actually done. certain NY rags just ran with the worst opinion, and the fact that the mayor made a statement without knowing all the facts made it even worse. But who would let the facts get in the way of good old fashioned mob justice?

that all being said, it doesn't surprise me that people in NYC just kept walking. its just the attitudes of people.

However, having had my share of fun times when dealing with bloody EDPs, I can honestly say I probably wouldn't have done anything either. I would, however, have called 911, and let the cops/EMS deal with him, as they are the professionals who can do the job properly.
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I agree that we should not touch blood that is not our own without the proper precausions in place, and believe me, I wouldn't, but this man laying on the street is an example that we, as a society, are losing our humaness.

Somebody, Joe Blow or Mr. Paramedic, could have at least stopped to offer comfort that someone was on the way to help
 
but this man laying on the street is an example that we, as a society, are losing our humaness.
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:rolleyes: It's nothing new. It's been done for a long time. We are just more aware of it because of the media and the pussification of American society.

511745195_1f7aa62cde.jpg



could have at least stopped to offer comfort that someone was on the way to help
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:lol: Dial 911 and move on, newbie, before you get stabbed because of your compassion.

I know what you're thinking.....
farside.jpg


...but seriously, in situations like this....
CoffeeMug-FarSideDamnedifYouDoDont.jpg


...so you have to be willing to potentially sacrifice the human detritus to protect yourself. It's pretty obvious.

cartoon_far-side_03.jpg


You should learn very quickly that I don't respond well to emotional BS attempts to guilt me into doing something pointless and stupid.
 
I think far side cartoons should be required in heated discussions, they certainly have a nicer way of saying things:rolleyes:
 
this is also known as the bystander effect or pluralistic ignorance, learned in psychology, so generally speaking, can't really blame ppl for not helping bc it's human nature and the mechanisms that underly why ppl don't help is very complex
 
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