"Does the EMS have a gruge against FFs?"

Linuss said:
I still don't get why people think fire is the best fit for EMS. We hold more in common with LE if you truly think about it.
If the argument is to get medical treatment to those who need it faster, and we're going to force someone to do something they don't want to, why not police? Police almost always beats fire to the scene.
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I agree with the above post.
 
Linuss makes a good point. I worked in Saint Cloud Minnesota where the fire department did zero EMS and PD first responded. They were fast and good. It worked great. PD always gets on scene first because they dont have the secondar PSAP lag between dispatch centers.
 
EMS almost always has a partner, police do and do not, in Portland most do not.

Fire is needed to work hand and hand with EMS in rescue and extraction. Fire also needs to be trained in first responder but hopefully EMT-B for when we do not have the training or protective gear to get to the patient first and to also take care of each other.

Police mainly only do traffic or scene safety for us.
 
MrBrown said:
Fire and Ambulance are two separate professions and should remain so.
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Maybe it's because I'm new but I really have no idea what firefighting and EMS have to do with each other. Does this mix happen in other countries as well?

@ Linuss EMS has even less in common with LE than it does with FF. In fact it's probably the antithesis.
 
Bloom-IUEMT said:
@ Linuss EMS has even less in common with LE than it does with FF. In fact it's probably the antithesis.
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Explain


schulz said:
Fire is needed to work hand and hand with EMS in rescue and extraction.
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And how many of our calls actually involve extrication and rescue?
 
Linuss said:
Explain




And how many of our calls actually involve extrication and rescue?
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That depends on your service area. Are you suggesting that EMS does not rely and need the fire department for a lot of our calls?

Anytime a call that needs a machine, tools, entrapment of a patient, smoke, fire, hazmat, rope rescue, wash down from blood left behind on scene, additional man power for lifting or patient care, first response in system status management, most MCI's, medical treatment of any patient who is in an unsafe or unstable area, the list go's on and on. Not only that the fire department is arguable what created Paramedics in the United States.
 
Linuss,
I knew you were going to say that....
LE likes hurting people, EMS likes helping people; LE wants to tell you what to do, EMS wants you to tell us how we can help you; LE has little compassion for anyone who isn't 100% law abiding, EMS has compassion for everyone; LE needs to instill fear and authority to gain compliance, EMS uses friendliness and affiliation to help patients.

Of course I'm 93% joking and using exaggeration but the institutional culture and philosophy of the two are different. Some of the least compassionate people I've worked with are from LE. The institutions just attract different types of people.

But here is the problem I see from combining the two professions--- if I want to work solely as a medic or EMT but the only providers of such a service in the field are fire-based and I hate firefighting (hypothetically), then I have to be a firefighter, FML.

Worse is a FF who only wants to fight fires and do SAR and hates EMS but is essentially forced to do it to have job; or a FF who becomes a Paramedic because it's the best way to get promoted or get a Captain's position. THis person is stuck doing something they hate and patient care and EMS standards likely will suffer. Idk, I'm just SPECULATING.

I just don't see how they are related. I mean you don't tend to see people who say "yeah I'm a firefighter/nurse"
 
I have had LE try to force me and threaten me not to treat a DUI driver with critical injury's because "he broke the law and caused the accident" and wanted my attention to the victim who was stable walking wounded.

There mindset is the opposite due to the nature of there job IMO
 
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I do want to say as a caveat though:

I've been lucky where I work because FD, PD and EMS are all very professional towards each other and always seem to cooperate well. Some of the horror stories I've heard about (namely the above post) makes me appreciative of the city in which I work. I'm definitely appreciative of all the help our service gets from the FD and how well things tend to work out on scene. ;)
 
No, the problem is you didn't prove your point at all about LE not being related to EMS, but instead went in to a rant of ff/nurses and captaints and stuff that had nothing to do with my original point: We're a lot more like LE than fire.


You said we weren't. I'm still waiting for an actual, serious, legit reply.
 
schulz said:
That depends on your service area. Are you suggesting that EMS does not rely and need the fire department for a lot of our calls?

Anytime a call that needs a machine, tools, entrapment of a patient, smoke, fire, hazmat, rope rescue, wash down from blood left behind on scene, additional man power for lifting or patient care, first response in system status management, most MCI's, medical treatment of any patient who is in an unsafe or unstable area, the list go's on and on. Not only that the fire department is arguable what created Paramedics in the United States.
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What about services that do their own extrication and rescue? Still is common in the south. There are areas that the only reason FD is dispatched, is for fires!;)
 
"but the institutional culture and philosophy of the two are different. Some of the least compassionate people I've worked with are from LE. The institutions just attract different types of people."
***sigh*** Here we go again.....
It's a LEO's job to gain compliance by use of force; lethal force if necessary. Isn't the difference in institutional philosophy self evident? Doesn't it also behoove an officer to suppress most if not all feelings of sympathy for perpetrators? If you have too much compassion for the drug addict you will not arrest him; if you see the teenager with a gun pointed at you and you think him as someone's child you will not pull the trigger; if you tell yourself the drunken college student who slapped you is too young and promising to have a felonious record you will not arrest her. An officer sees people as good or bad; law-abiding or criminal; whereas an EMT or Paramedic only sees a patient. As an EMS worker if you are hurt you need help regardless of whether you are a criminal or not.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l13127jl77r57411/

But my "rant" was in response to the thread and it's contents.
And I'm not going to prove anything...it's an opinion

But idk I'm speculating. Maybe I'm completely wrong....tell me why you think so. I'd like to think I have an open mind and cherish opportunities to challenge my beliefs. Why do you think LE is more like EMS than FF?
 
Actually, before I moved to the US I wasn't aware that the fire services and the EMS were so intricately connected. Where I come from (in the Caribbean/Europe) the fire services and the EMS are two totally separate, independently operated services. In the islands, the fire fighters aren't even cross trained, and the police services are closer to the EMS than the fire fighters are. We, as EMS personnel, don't actually see/require the services of the fire fighters unless there is of course, a fire, or some sort of extrication necessary. Most of the time we deal with the police.

I actually prefer it that way, for some reason, I get the impression here that people who are currently in EMS in this country are using the profession as a stepping-stone to become a firefighter (I was the only student in my EMT class that wasn't interested in becoming a firefighter). Back home, the people EMT's are in the EMS because its what they want to do, its what they enjoy, and its their career - not a temporary solution to becoming a firefighter.
 
Mare, I agree with you, it seems like a lot of people use EMS as a stepping stone to become a FF. I attend two EMT classes, one at Chabot in Hayward and one at SJCC in San Jose (I am not a student in the Chabot class, but the instructors allow me to attend as long as I am not distruptive and I like to give other students input on what I learn differently at SJCC where I am really a student). In both classes, the majority of students want to go into Fire. I dislike that.

Nobody is going to make any comments on the Public Safety Officers that I mentioned on page 2 of this discussion? It's really neat in my opinion and seems to be working out. They are EMTs, FFs, and LEOs all in one!

On a personal level, I don't think it's necessary or useful for Fire to be cert. EMTs, but that's probably because I live in the Bay Area and the arrival of LEOs, FFs, and EMTs have little to no difference, and from what I have witnessed so far, extrication is usually not a problem.

LEOs don't have to hate criminals, love law abiding people, and etc.. just as much as EMTs don't have to love sick people, love pot/crack heads, love gang members that got hurt in a gang fight/shooting, etc.. Bloom, do you think the mindset of LEOs could change if they were taught about EMS in parallel? [edit]We are taught that we are not there to judge, but there to treat like you guys said earlier. I don't know about LEOs, but I think they don't have to judge people there.. they are just there to enforce the law. You either broke the law or you didn't... You need treatment, you get treatment. Duh...[/edit]

I agree with Linuss, I think we do have more in common with LEOs than with FFs (if FFs didn't do any EMS related stuff). His list on the previous page was pretty convincing to me. :D
 
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schulz said:
That depends on your service area. Are you suggesting that EMS does not rely and need the fire department for a lot of our calls?

Anytime a call that needs a machine, tools, entrapment of a patient, smoke, fire, hazmat, rope rescue, wash down from blood left behind on scene, additional man power for lifting or patient care, first response in system status management, most MCI's, medical treatment of any patient who is in an unsafe or unstable area, the list go's on and on. Not only that the fire department is arguable what created Paramedics in the United States.
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not here. Fire outs out Fires. University Hospital in Newark has their own EMS rescue. Pittsburg EMS has two rescues covering the city. Ditto several departments in Virginia. And many many volunteer EMS agencies in Northern and Central NJ have rescues that have nothing to do with the FD.

Fire departments get sent on calls for a few reasons. the primary one is that it is cheaper to send them then to properly staff and fun an EMS system to cover all their calls without the first responder bandaid. the FD likes it because now it justifies their jobs, by going on more calls, when often their impact on patient care is minimal.

a properly staffed EMS system would be designed with the FD way of thinking, where you have extra units in case of system surge. FD could respond to fires, and assist when muscles were needed, but if EMS had quarters, stations, sleeping quarters, and a better path for the future, Plus the whole EMS respondes to 4 times more calls than their FD counterparts, yet EMS tends to top out at 50k. So yeah, this difference is conditions

leads to the "grudge" as you put it would go away.
 
OK you two down south east coast guys! I love to hear about different systems. I can only speak from my own experience in the Nw
 
Bloom-IUEMT said:
But idk I'm speculating. Maybe I'm completely wrong....tell me why you think so. I'd like to think I have an open mind and cherish opportunities to challenge my beliefs. Why do you think LE is more like EMS than FF?
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My observations from the places I worked. Your mileage may vary.

I am trying to abstain from commenting on grudges.


LE and EMS require people who are individual decision makers on a regular basis, unlike the fire service where there is less individual decision making. (I have never been or have any inclination towards LE. I speak from the fire and EMS perspective)

As well LE and EMS regularly act as individuals until backup arrives. The Fire service usually has a more massive initial response.
In LE and EMS larger teams are made up of smaller ones. In Fire larger teams are usually divided to smaller ones. (an engine company may form 2 attack lines, a rescue company divide on a search, truck companies dividing for search and ventilation.

In EMS systems where there is no station, there seems to be more integration with the indigenous people. The fire department seems more like a fortress, you go to the emergency, it rarely comes to you.
It seems to me firefighting is also more about an event than an interpersonal experience like LE and EMS.

As examples as a firefighter dispatched to: “house on fire,” “medical first response,” “EMS call.”

As an EMS provider dispatched to: “Chest pain” “sick person,” “rape.”
Some similarities: (all vehicle related) “MVA,” “train wreck,” “plane crash.”
LE and EMS also seem to have short interactions with lots of paperwork. Fire seems to have long interactions with less. Compare an average fire report to an average LE report or PCR.

Police and EMS don’t wear turnout gear, may wear BDUs.
 
I don't have a grudge against firefighters as a class. At most, I have found that there are certain companies that treat us well, and others that treat us poorly - for example, not clearing us when they figure out our services will not be needed so that we learn we can leave only by a sudden absence of fire apparatus.

I enjoy being an EMT. I have no desire to fight fires (or roll up miles of hose, or polish firetrucks). So, they do what they do, and I do what I do.

Around here, though, both services are volley, so there's no pay or benefits issues. There is some tension because the FDs are supported by a fire tax and we are donation-funded (and answer 10x as many calls.).
 
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