Concealed Weapons

[CheifBud]

no, I'm saying a gun is a gun, and it's PD's responsibly to handle firearms.

"SIR I need you to stop your heart attack since I am in charge of saving your life, In charge of administration of medications that with a slight overdose could kill you, and the State/NREMT owns my soul and every piece of information about me, but I can't handle the same firearm you walk around the mall with every day for just a moment in order to save your life"

That's the bottom line.... not, "oh well its not my job to handle that".

Kind of Ironic.... according to DrParasite's way of thinking. The same people that buy a gun for protection now get to bleed out internally from X ailment since we have to wait for PD to take the super scary uncontrollable force of evil in which no one can possibly handle with killing someone unless they have a badge on A.K.A a firearm.

 

[ffemt8978]

Tone down the rhetoric...

 

[DrParasite]

I fail to see how the police would be at fault for securing a weapon that they did not know existed.

THAT'S WHY YOU CALL THEM TO SECURE THE WEAPON!!!!! Of course they won't be at fault, but if you call them to secure the weapon, and they don't show up, than that's on them.

Sorry but if someone is having an MI in a supermarket I am not waiting for the police if they have a delayed response time. "Sir I know you want to go to the hospital right now but we need to wait 25 minutes for the police to take possession of your weapon." That's how you get a patient to point his CCW at you.

out of curiosity, with him pointing his CCW at you, would you consider that a reason to have PD? but they are 25 minutes away, and you wanted to let the patient keep his weapon. and now it's aimed at you. good call

Leaving it in a public place and telling the police to come get it is a terrible idea too. How are the police supposed to control the weapon if they're not on scene.

you could always request PD and wait for them, treating the patient while you wait.

I agree that this conversation needs to happen before the call does, how about working together with the police and holding an inservice on gun safety?

sure, sounds like a great idea. also make sure you have a written policy from your agency that says you are to transport patient's with CCWs to the hospital, and if PD is not on scene, you are to take the firearm with you to the hospital. this way you are covered by your agency, PD knows what you are doing, and the gun isn't left out in the open.

btw, I'd like to see a copy of that policy once it gets written.

Since you've limited the conversation to just the initial training, was CEVO and EVOC done in EMT class? How many hours did you log in an ambulance during EMT class?

we had 8 hours on ambulance operations. also I have documented EMS training in CEVO and EVOC. how much documented weapons training to you have, and how much do your fellow EMTs have?

Going over lifting and carrying devices and going over body mechanics are not the same thing. Sheet transfers? Wheel chair to gurney transfers? Or just, "Here's how you use a backboard"?

umm, we went over how to use a backboard. not much training on wheelchair to gurney transfers, and I think I have done maybe two such transfers in 10 years of doing EMS, and one of those times I hurt my back and was out of work for 2 weeks. and sheet transfers were all OJT. still didn't cover firearms.

Let's see. One involves a crime and discharge of weapons, and the other doesn't. Are you saying that you would enter the scene if Bob didn't have a gun despite no police and that you don't know where the shooter is?

I'd be much more hesitant to enter the shooting scene before it has been secured. Not saying that I wouldn't, but I would be hesitant.

I don't view the lawful carrying of a firearm as a scene safety issue in the sense of "OMG, the gun might leap out of the holster and pull it's own trigger" type of thinking. The mere presence of a fire arm is not a scene safety issue.

sure and a gun in the hand of a violent EDP doesn't shoot people until he starts pulling the trigger. but the gun in and of itself doesn't prevent a scene safety issue (and yes, i'm agreeing with you on this one).

Going along this line of thinking, if there was a call at a shotgun range, would you require the entire range to be shut down just because you're on scene, despite the fact that the other stations besides the one you're at poses no risk to you?

that's absurd, not sure where you are coming up with that.

Irrelevant, as you would already be treating the patient by the time you found their firearm, and there are ways to safely secure a holstered firearm that doesn't require backing off for 5 minutes while the police respond.

you know they have a firearm, some advocate letting the patient keep it.

Have fun making that argument because it's not going to fly... well... anyplace. It's almost like saying, "Well, I'm not trained to be a baby sitter, and we don't have enough places in the ambulance for all of the kids, so we're just going to leave the kids home alone because the police won't show up."

apples and pears. but if mom has 8 kids, are you going to take all the kids with you in the ambulance? your argument is flawed. it's still apples and pears.

...and thanks to this thread, I think I'll go trap shooting tomorrow.

if the weather is nice, so will I

 

[CheifBud]

ok it was a little bit but done so to make a point, never against someone personally. sorry.

I just find it so hypocritical that EMS personnel constantly complain about not being treated as a professional service but now have to have PD hold our hand on what will be more and more calls. The bottom line is we want to be professionals and viewed as such then I think its only logical that if our patients are now walking around with loaded weapons we need to start being "trained" on how to handle these weapons. If I was loaded into an ambulance and the same guy that is putting needles in my arm and pumping me full of medication said he didn't know how to handle a simple hand-gun... "you can just drop me off at the next stop please, I pump gas for a living and you can't hold on to a weapon safely?"

One maybe two Saturday after noon get together with local PD go over handling, removing and clearing, and storing the weapon. Have PD collaborate to locate a safe storage place for the weapon till it can be turned over. Have PD designate certain people to handle and take responsibility of the weapon within your crew. TAKE SOME INITIATIVE.

As far as I see it we have two options. Call PD on almost every call since in some states like AZ where you don't even need a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Or we can take the initiative, step up to the plate, and find a way to safely and proffesionaly handle CCW situations while ensuring NO hindrance in patient care.

It was sarcasm in my last post but I still stand buy it... guns are not evil forces that will jump out and get you when you're not looking... they are in fact carried by hundreds upon thousands of individuals, many without permits or more gun training than you or I and if we plan on working in a state that allows CCW we need to do something about it... not have PD hold our hand every time.

Bottom line... If the public is walking around with weapons the people charged with providing emergency healthcare should be able to handle it as well...If the state thinks anyone can carry a weapon then, well, I think EMS personnel definitely falls into that category.

 

[JPINFV]

we had 8 hours on ambulance operations. also I have documented EMS training in CEVO and EVOC. how much documented weapons training to you have, and how much do your fellow EMTs have?

So you're no longer limiting it to initial training.

I'm a fire arms owner who has been shooting pistols, rifles, and shotguns since before I was a teenager. I have full faith in my ability to handle any standard firearm in a safe manner. Saying that you need documented hours to safely handle a firearm is like saying you need documented hours to safely handle a kitchen knife. It's really not that hard once you get past the "OMG, a GUN" stage.

umm, we went over how to use a backboard. not much training on wheelchair to gurney transfers, and I think I have done maybe two such transfers in 10 years of doing EMS, and one of those times I hurt my back and was out of work for 2 weeks. and sheet transfers were all OJT. still didn't cover firearms.

Why are you doing sheet transfers and gurney to wheelchair transfers if you didn't cover it in EMT class? (again, you limited to specifically initial training. Again, would you like to recant that limitation?). Can you not use training and experience outside of EMT class or OTJ training in order to more proficiently do your job, or do you just ignore everything outside of what was specifically taught?

I'd be much more hesitant to enter the shooting scene before it has been secured. Not saying that I wouldn't, but I would be hesitant. sure and a gun in the hand of a violent EDP doesn't shoot people until he starts pulling the trigger. but the gun in and of itself doesn't prevent a scene safety issue (and yes, i'm agreeing with you on this one).

So the entire issue about the CCW is a red herring since it was ultimately irrelevant when compared to the other dude with a gun who was shooting people.

So the guy who was shot and was defending himself is now an emotionally disturbed individual?

Furthermore, what about the much more likely situation where the concealed weapon stays concealed until you start treating?

that's absurd, not sure where you are coming up with that.

So you're concerned about one man with a concealed weapon, but not an entire group of people with non-concealed weapons who are actively loading and firing said weapons in relative proximity?

you know they have a firearm, some advocate letting the patient keep it.

Depending on the situation, that's a very reasonable course of action. Not everyone with a firearm is some crazed member of society just itching for the chance to put a bullet in someone. In fact, considering some recent incidents, I'm more concerned about the stability of the average police officer than the average CCW holder.

apples and pears. but if mom has 8 kids, are you going to take all the kids with you in the ambulance? your argument is flawed.

If I don't have enough seats to safely secure 8 kids, and no one else is willing to respond, what are the options? Using your argument, I should leave the kids alone, which in the short term is probably safer than leaving a loaded weapon on the curb of a public street.

 

[CheifBud]

I think we're all missing the point. It is ridiculously simple... Why do you need to call PD to do something the state already said pretty much anyone can do?!?!?!? And if you are employed in EMS you will most likely qualify for a permit... right there what makes you soooo different and incapable compared to John Q?

Wisconsin says Ben Dover can carry a CCW. We don't know if this persons an upstanding person in his community or he just hasn't gotten caught dealing drugs yet. Either way this guy can carry, hold, play with, really whatever the hell he pleases short of waving it around at people. So why can't an EMS PROFESSIONAL handle it?

Why are we selling ourselves short by acting like we are not smart enough to handle a weapon, when, for the 5th time, Ben D. is no different than YOU or your crew. So at what point does it turn from a persons concealed weapon to a weapon that is completely different from anything you can handle? Again what makes Ben such an expert on firearms that you can't possibly touch it?

Also If I were to get a CCW permit as an EMS personnel in WI am I then able to take control of the firearm... because at that point there is absolutely no difference between Ben D. and I. Why call PD to have them do something that MOST people in Wisconsin can legally do?

Wisconsin says any citizen of this state in good standing can carry a weapon. I live in Wisconsin and am in "good standing" ... therefore I should be able to handle a weapon for a short time.

 

[JPINFV]

Oh, and here's training for handling a firearm.

Rule 1: It's loaded, always.

Rule 2: Don't point the gun at something you don't want to shoot.

Rule 3: Keep the booger picker off of the bang stick.

You've just completed the 3 steps to safe handling of a firearm.

 

[CheifBud]

Barring unusual circumstances, felons, and other techincalities....

Any idiot can now go out, buy a gun, and carry it around....

This is where YOU ALL decide.

Is EMS LESS competent than the general public or MORE competent?

By saying "I can't touch that weapon, I'm scared" you are placing EMS in the LESS competent category.

It's not about scenarios and what-ifs and making a worse scenario to prove your point... This is really happening, people WILL have guns, and we need to handle it like professionals.

Why are we acting like the general public is more qualified to handle firearms then us...?

 

[CheifBud]

Oh, and here's training for handling a firearm.

Rule 1: It's loaded, always.

Rule 2: Don't point the gun at something you don't want to shoot.

Rule 3: Keep the booger picker off of the bang stick.

You've just completed the 3 steps to safe handling of a firearm.

WHOA WHOA now... this is waaaaay to much for me to understand. Sure administering medications, starting IV's, and 12-leads are simple but " don't point the gun at something you don't want to shoot" just blows my mind. Ill probably have to get a book on this or something....

Not being facetious to you, being facetious WITH you

 

[ffemt8978]

Last chance to tone down the rhetoric...

 

[CheifBud]

Didn't know anyone was offended I'm sorry.

Wasn't directed at anyone...
Did not specify anyone....
Even said in the post I'm not being sarcastic towards the person...
Essentially used a little sarcasm to illustrate someones point I agree with...

Wasn't really going at anyone but sorry again if someone is offended

 

[ffemt8978]

I understand that, but that type of sarcasm and it's inevitable replies is what leads to the thread getting locked and people being given a forum vacation.

 

[adamjh3]

The core of the issue is there is NO one-size-fits-all answer (Y'know, like in medicine, that field we all work in?).

Sure if PD is right there, or my patient is stable and the wait won't be too long, let them handle it. I'm almost certain they'll have better SOPs for dealing with storing firearms than an ambulance crew.

If they're not, or your patient really needs high flow diesel, I really don't see an issue at all. If they're in a state where they need rapid transport to definitive care, they're in no condition to use their weapon. If they're not, and they're conscious and able, have them remove the holstered weapon from their person so you can store it for hospital security/your sup/LE/whoever to handle it.

Realistically, this is going to be a very low priority call for PD, I think "Hey, my husband is bashing my face in and I need some po-lease please" is a little more important than "Hey, my patient has a gun... well no, he's nobody's been shot... nope, he's not pointing it at anyone... no, he's actually not even conscious... I just don't want it in my ambulance... 45 minutes? Okay, I'll just leave it on the curb at 5th and Elm, pick it up when you get a chance."

Jump on the issue before the situation occurs and flesh out an SOP (Other than leaving it on the street). If you're still not sure what to do when the situation arises call your Sup. After that, use some common sense - and that means don't leave it on the curb - If you HAVE to handle the weapon unholstered, grip it firmly, don't point it at anyone, and keep your booger-hook off the trigger.

 

[DrParasite]

I'm a fire arms owner who has been shooting pistols, rifles, and shotguns since before I was a teenager. I have full faith in my ability to handle any standard firearm in a safe manner. Saying that you need documented hours to safely handle a firearm is like saying you need documented hours to safely handle a kitchen knife. It's really not that hard once you get past the "OMG, a GUN" stage.

ok, I'm going to try to boil this down to the simplest way possible.

You feel comfortable with firearms. do you feel comfortable with me handling a firearm? do you feel comfortable with an 18 year old who just stepped on the ambulance? how about the 21 year old who can't stop dropping the damn clipboard? going to be comfortable with him handling the firearm? what about the guy who has never touched a gun in his life?

It has nothing to do with an individual's training and experience... if you are going to make a policy, an SOP, or a protocol, it needs to be brought down to the lowest level; if everyone is trained in firearm safety, than it becomes a moot point. but if everyone is not trained equally, well, that is where you have a problem.

Why are you doing sheet transfers and gurney to wheelchair transfers if you didn't cover it in EMT class? (again, you limited to specifically initial training. Again, would you like to recant that limitation?). Can you not use training and experience outside of EMT class or OTJ training in order to more proficiently do your job, or do you just ignore everything outside of what was specifically taught?

everyone at my service is trained in sheet transfers. OTJ is accepted, provided EVERYONE has the training. the only reason I mentioned EMT class was because in theory everyone receives the same training. everyone at my service has CEVO and EVOC training. it's all documented. not everyone has firearms training.

So the entire issue about the CCW is a red herring since it was ultimately irrelevant when compared to the other dude with a gun who was shooting people.

blah blah blah

So the guy who was shot and was defending himself is now an emotionally disturbed individual?

I never said that. I used the EDP as a separate example.

So you're concerned about one man with a concealed weapon, but not an entire group of people with non-concealed weapons who are actively loading and firing said weapons in relative proximity?

still absurd. I won't even dignify that absurdity with a response.

Depending on the situation, that's a very reasonable course of action. Not everyone with a firearm is some crazed member of society just itching for the chance to put a bullet in someone. In fact, considering some recent incidents, I'm more concerned about the stability of the average police officer than the average CCW holder.

wow, just wow. maybe it's just me and my area, but I would trust a member of law enforcement more than I would a civilian with a CCW. call it their training, requirements to stay proficient, education on law enforcement compared to a guy who carry a gun for personal reason. but hey, that's just me.

If I don't have enough seats to safely secure 8 kids, and no one else is willing to respond, what are the options? Using your argument, I should leave the kids alone, which in the short term is probably safer than leaving a loaded weapon on the curb of a public street.

you didn't answer what YOU would do.

I think we're all missing the point. It is ridiculously simple... Why do you need to call PD to do something the state already said pretty much anyone can do?!?!?!? And if you are employed in EMS you will most likely qualify for a permit... right there what makes you soooo different and incapable compared to John Q?

Wisconsin says Ben Dover can carry a CCW. We don't know if this persons an upstanding person in his community or he just hasn't gotten caught dealing drugs yet. Either way this guy can carry, hold, play with, really whatever the hell he pleases short of waving it around at people. So why can't an EMS PROFESSIONAL handle it?

Why are we selling ourselves short by acting like we are not smart enough to handle a weapon, when, for the 5th time, Ben D. is no different than YOU or your crew. So at what point does it turn from a persons concealed weapon to a weapon that is completely different from anything you can handle? Again what makes Ben such an expert on firearms that you can't possibly touch it?

honest question: aside from filling out a form, do you need any training or education to get a CCW? any training, any safety courses, or is it just "fill out this form, give us the $25 filing fee, and here is your permit, go get your gun"?

and does your state have any rule about having loaded firearms in an ambulance? I know mine does.

Realistically, this is going to be a very low priority call for PD, I think "Hey, my husband is bashing my face in and I need some po-lease please" is a little more important than "Hey, my patient has a gun... well no, he's nobody's been shot... nope, he's not pointing it at anyone... no, he's actually not even conscious... I just don't want it in my ambulance... 45 minutes? Okay, I'll just leave it on the curb at 5th and Elm, pick it up when you get a chance."

you think telling them you are leaving it on the curb for them to pick up will move it on the priority list?

and contrary to the belief of some, the overwhelming MAJORITY of calls for PD are of the report nature; that means they aren't imminent threats to life or property.

 

[rmabrey]

My training driving an ambulance lasted about 20 minutes. My training with handguns alone this year is over twice the amount that most police officers do in a year, and im not just talking about going to the range and shooting stationary targets. .

 

[bigdogems]

I love gun debates. Once again. If a person has a CHL you arent going to find it unless its a trauma call and your making them naked! All these what if things. Ok a person has a head injury, or is hypoxic. Your saying that they dont know whats going on or what they're doing. But the one thing that they will be in their right mind to do is draw a gun on someone helping them? Almost every state has carry laws now. When was the last time you read or seen anything about an EMS crew being shot by someone who had a CHL???? lets take a different example.... How many people have a knife in their pocket at any given time??? Are EMS crews constantly getting stabbed or cut by hypoxic pts???? Nope

 

[bigdogems]

Oh and if your going into a shooting scene without police what ever happens to you at that point is your fault

 

[mcdonl]

Fear can cloud our vision and perspective. I am afraid of hieghts, so when it comes to dealing with ladders and roof work I need to really dig deep down inside myself and apply some knows such as following safe procedures will decrease my chance of injury, and that I will not just "fall" if I am safe and follow the rules.

There are many more people who are afraid of guns, and they need to dig down deep and come to the same realities.

 

[imadriver]

It is sort of funny... your whole post assumes the firearm makes the scene unsafe, that there was a law broken and that PD needs or cares to know about it.

Also, it is a magazine not a "clip" unless they happen to be carrying a WW2 era rifle.

I consider any firearm on scene to be dangerous. I don't know who these people are when I first walk up and come into their home. Any weapon on scene should be treated as a danger. I agree most people that are going to have a firearm directly on them are going to be great people and a completely legal form. However, expect the worse, and hope for the best.

And sorry about my post. I should definitely clarify. We Never leave a gun on scene unsecured. We remove it from the proximity of the patient, and let PD/HP handle it beyond that. Then Document that we do so.

And sorry about the "chip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.

 

[mcdonl]

And sorry about the "clip" thing. That's my southern comin' out.

Y'alls forgiven