Come on teachers……teach…..

[DT4EMS]

Come on teachers……teach…..

I have noticed while reading and posting on EMS forums around the web more often than not there is an attitude with a lot of the posters. These people with the attitude complain about EMS not being respected as a profession, yet fail to show respect for each other. For the sake of this post I will refer to them as keyboard bullies (KB).
(Now I see this less on EMTlife than anywhere else on the web)

It seems although the KB may possess an incredible amount of patient- medical care information, they lack the skills to interact with many people in the online community. The KB is quick to attack any person new to the EMS arena. The KB wishes to prove they are smarter than everyone else on a forum. There is sarcasm is nearly every post where a person may ask a legitimate information seeking question or type about a call they had. Instead of offering advice in a civilized manner, threads get locked because of personal attacks. Is this type of attitude an extension of their real-world persona?
Come on teachers……teach…..

Even I have experienced it when I offer a professional opinion to a self-defense for EMS question. It humors me when the KB will jump in and speak to how they “will do whatever it takes to go home” and throw advice to the masses without having the credentials to back it up. The KB will make references to “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six” not realizing all assaults on EMS do not result in deadly force encounters. Many of these encounters, while not life threatening, have been career ending. Because "Preparing to protect yourself does not equate to preparing to harm someone".
Come on teachers……teach…..


What the KB does not consider is the person who uses the internet to gain information. When a person reads about an EMS provider using dangerous and sometimes illegal tactics or techniques to control an “uncooperative patient” they may not be able to differentiate “machismo” from reality.
Come on teachers……teach…..

It is almost like the KB feels threatened by anyone who has an opinion different from theirs. Although I have experience teaching all levels of EMS core content…… I am far from being as smart as the instructors that taught me. So I offer what I can in the areas of patient care. The area I am a subject matter expert in is self-defense/defensive tactics specifically for EMS/Fire and the healthcare provider. It is in this area I spend my time trying to help as many as I can.

The KB, usually unaware of my background or expertise, is quick to try and quell any advice I offer making comments on how EMS/Fire or the healthcare provider does not need specific training for self-protection. This uneducated response reflects the KB is unaware of the NAEMT, CDC, OSHA and Dr. Brian Maguire’s studies on the subject. The KB is also unaware of the new Firefighter Safety Initiative that is specific to the realm of self-defense. Just because the KB has not experienced an assault they believe it does not happen to anyone, anywhere.
Come on teachers……teach…..

The KB assumes that what we teach in our Escaping Violent Encounters course must be some form of MMA or military combatives training staff to “kill a man in three moves”. The attitude of many has been changed once they have seen what our courses teach people. They quickly become our best form of advertisement. Usually their course eval reads something like “I thought this was going to be another class teaching staff how to fight, man was I wrong….” Then there is a comment about how “everyone should have this training”.

What many of the KB don’t know is for the first decade I did this……. I heard it all. Many refused to acknowledge the need for training. They made all kinds of condescending comments about me and what I was trying to do. Well, for the past 4 years…….. that has all changed. Now I get phone calls from educators and administrators across the country regarding our courses. We have several EMS training institutions making our courses a part of their curriculum in order to graduate. We have had 7 published articles, presented even at the national EMS level and are considered a subject matter expert.

So, KB’s I ask……… I have the background, experience and expertise to say “why EMS should train” for scene safety, what is your argument for why they should not?

My goal is to change minds; it is not “part of the job” to be assaulted. It is OK to defend yourself if attacked. The attack must be reported and documented for the legal process to take its course.

If the KB’s are all about education requirements for EMS…….what makes their view different from mine? There shouldn’t be an attitude………we are on the same team.

KB… I implore you…. If you are the expert in any area, lead and I will follow. We want to learn. Push and it only brings confrontation.

If we are trying to improve the breed, get respect as a profession………Come on teachers……teach…..

 

[medic417]

Bravo. I applaud you. This should be required reading on all EMS forums before being allowed to post.

 

[got_shoes]

It should be required for all EMS professionals! Why shouldn't EMS be trained like LEO's when it comes to scene size up? well we should. Of course you will have EMS providers who then will think well "I have the same training as the cops why cant I carry a gun" this profession has a long way to go before it will be respected by the general public and other public safety, as well as other medical professionals. who have the education to understand that they are a cog in the wheel and not the most important.

 

[Trayos]

I think the main problem may be that people can use the internet as an echo chamber of sorts, and all to easily pick and choose what they want to believe. If contradicted in the earlier stages, they may very well move on. In later stages, they feel empowered enough by previous "experiences" to engage in confrontations with others. What we see here is the confrontation between people who have experienced the issue in real life, and those who have only been exposed (and cultivated) a specific mindset.
I think it would be nice if two long-bickering people could be required to have information (be that personal experiences or trusted research/data) to support their points.
$0.02

 

[usafmedic45]

(Now I see this less on EMTlife than anywhere else on the web)

EMTLife: The kinder, gentler EMS forum. GROUP HUG!

It seems although the KB may possess an incredible amount of patient- medical care information, they lack the skills to interact with many people in the online community.

The same could be said for a lot of the newbies who seem to come here expecting to be told what they want to here. I believe that even Medic417 would agree with me on this one. It is not simply the veterans who have piss poor interpersonal skills. The mindset that a lot of people- especially younger persons, my generation and the one following it- is one that all that matters is self and getting what you want. Any attempt to tell someone with that mentality that they are incorrect, wrong, misguided, functionally pithed or whatever the proper description might be results in a grotesque amount of whining and reported posts.

The KB, usually unaware of my background or expertise, is quick to try and quell any advice I offer making comments on how EMS/Fire or the healthcare provider does not need specific training for self-protection.

Who has done that? Please refer to my earlier comment about the problems that arise when you tell people they are wrong.

The KB wishes to prove they are smarter than everyone else on a forum.

When you're arguing with people whose entire professional education consists of a book written at an elementary school reading level, it's not hard to prove that. It would be akin to my picking a (literal or proverbial) fight with you as someone whose self-defense knowledge would not make for a good post on here.

The KB will make references to “I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six” not realizing all assaults on EMS do not result in deadly force encounters

Well said.

So, KB’s I ask……… I have the background, experience and expertise to say “why EMS should train” for scene safety, what is your argument for why they should not?

Because they are morons and don't want to admit they are wrong?

There is sarcasm is nearly every post where a person may ask a legitimate information seeking question or type about a call they had.

In my case, I have a reputation to uphold. However, as I said before, I defer to you on the topic of safety. In fact, I am going to find one of your courses to attend. Hopefully my attempt at figuring out the six "Ds" last night was taken as simply a sarcastic retort.

Instead of offering advice in a civilized manner, threads get locked because of personal attacks.

No, they get locked because some people's first response to being called out or questioned is to whine to the moderators. There's a difference. It's not a personal attack when the "attack" is a critique.

KB… I implore you…. If you are the expert in any area, lead and I will follow. We want to learn. Push and it only brings confrontation.

It also helps push the undesirables out of the field. If we present a well-defined, unified front that stupidity and cowboy tactics will not be tolerated- and will, in fact be ridiculed- that is as important to advancing the field as increasing educational standards. Professions, true professions are self-regulating when it comes to their ranks.

 

[usafmedic45]

Of course you will have EMS providers who then will think well "I have the same training as the cops why cant I carry a gun"

Because then everyone of my cases where someone smarted off would end with the phrase "...and that's when I shot/tazed/pepper sprayed/sic'ed the dog on/used my ASP baton on them."

I think it would be nice if two long-bickering people could be required to have information (be that personal experiences or trusted research/data) to support their points.

In God we trust, all others bring proof.

 

[Trayos]

It also helps push the undesirables out of the field. If we present a well-defined, unified front that stupidity and cowboy tactics will not be tolerated- and will, in fact be ridiculed- that is as important to advancing the field as increasing educational standards. Professions, true professions are self-regulating when it comes to their ranks.

True, but nothing starts self-regulating. What do you feel are some approaches to start this (and quantitative ways to examine their progress)?
I observe that there is a lot of animosity between people of different skill sets- that is to be expected, it occurs in many occupational areas.
While (mass generalization imminent) EMS as a whole has the same basic objectives, regardless of skill set, there is lots of conflict regarding the means of achieving that end. This animosity seems to stem from a belief that the person's own skill set is the best means of achieving this goal, regardless of whether or not their specific skill set is designed for it. I think that if EMS personnel were strongly obligated to learn the other fields' relations to their own, it would allow for a greater sense of common cause and fellowship.

 

[DT4EMS]

Because then everyone of my cases where someone smarted off would end with the phrase "...and that's when I shot/tazed/pepper sprayed/sic'ed the dog on/used my ASP baton on them."



In God we trust, all others bring proof.

Sorry...no cop tactics taught...........


Any course I teach anywhere, you have an invitation to attend at no cost to make your informed decision. I offer with sincerity. You are in Indiana....... we have one coming up November 6th and 7th. I will even hook you up with a place to stay. All you have to do is get here.

I will let you view hundreds of course evals from participants including educators and supervisors like yourself prior to taking the class.

Then after you complete the course, you can give your informed opinion and I will respect it. Better than a money back offer.......



Some stats
• According to the study released by the NAEMT in 2005, the number one injury to EMS providers is assault (52%).

• In 1999 Bureau of Labor Statistics estimated that 2,637 nonfatal assaults occurred to hospital workers—that is a rate of 8.3 assaults per 10,000 workers. This rate is significantly higher than the rate of nonfatal assaults for all other private-sector industries, which are 2 per 10,000 workers.

• According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a healthcare provider is more likely to be assaulted, while on the job, than a police officer or a prison guard.

• OSHA has identified a Potential Hazard in relation to the increased risk of violence in the medical setting, and the ineffective training of staff to deal with or identify potential violent problems. There are specific OSHA recommendations for the health care setting.

• The ENA (Emergency Nurses Association) has taken the following position “Health care organizations have a responsibility to provide a safe and secure environment for their employees and the public.” And “emergency nurses have a right to take appropriate measures to protect themselves and their patients from injury due to violent individual.”



• According to Brian J. Maguire, Dr.PH, MSA, Clinical Associate Professor, University of Maryland, Baltimore County:

“The risk of non-fatal assault resulting in lost work time among EMS workers is 0.6 cases per 100 workers per year; the national average is about 1.8 cases per 10,000 workers per year. So the relative risk for EMS workers is about 30 times higher than the national average. The relative risk of fatal assaults for EMS workers is about three times higher than the national average.”

 

[usafmedic45]

Sorry...no cop tactics taught...........

Excellent. I always said that the reason I did not go for the last qualification in the public safety "trinity" (EMS/fire/police) was that I lack the temprament to be a LEO. However, I am always looking for ways to learn to be safer. I would much rather de-escalate a situation than have to resort to force because once it gets to that point, it is really ugly.

Any course I teach anywhere, you have an invitation to attend at no cost to make your informed decision. I offer with sincerity. You are in Indiana....... we have one coming up November 6th and 7th. I will even hook you up with a place to stay. All you have to do is get here.

No need for the place to stay, but I will take you up on the offer otherwise.

Then after you complete the course, you can give your informed opinion and I will respect it. Better than a money back offer.......

I will be happy to give my feedback. I think I will get a lot out of the course.

 

[DT4EMS]

Excellent. I always said that the reason I did not go for the last qualification in the public safety "trinity" (EMS/fire/police) was that I lack the temprament to be a LEO. However, I am always looking for ways to learn to be safer. I would much rather de-escalate a situation than have to resort to force because once it gets to that point, it is really ugly.

That is the main obstacle I have had to get past for years.......too many agencies brought in a cop.....who taught "control" techniques or a martial arts instructor who taught people to "fight". I created it truly from a medic's perspective with "good customer service" as the base and escape being the goal.

We are medically directed. My partner is an MD......

The 6 D's
Drunk-Needs no explanation
Drugged-Meth covered mostly
Diabetic- Not usually their intent
Deranged-usually the EDP is what we cover
Domestic-Sometimes called in as falls (Microwave vs Crockpot with regards to emotions)
Desperate- The ambulance jumper (the provider may be in the way)

We teach on each and the dangers they posses. We cover Dispatch, Pre-Arrival and actual scene safety tactics for them.

 

[Trayos]

2 quick questions:
Is there an age requirement to participate in the course?

Are there any courses offered in Maryland?

 

[usafmedic45]

the number one injury to EMS providers is assault (52%).

Really? I would figure that back injuries would be more frequent. Perhaps it is a matter of reporting bias? Do you happen to have a copy of that survey by any chance? I mean I realize the problem of assault of EMS professionals- and trust your word on it- but I am interested as an epidemiologist in training in seeing the study.

 

[DT4EMS]

Really? I would figure that back injuries would be more frequent. Perhaps it is a matter of reporting bias? Do you happen to have a copy of that survey by any chance? I mean I realize the problem of assault of EMS professionals- and trust your word on it- but I am interested as an epidemiologist in training in seeing the study.

Back injuries were 47% I will dig up the link and post it. I found Dr. Maguires more informative.

NAEMT: Four in Five Medics Injured on the Job

Nov 18, 2005 11:51 AM

Four in five medics have experienced some kind of injury or medical condition as a result of their work, according to the National Association of Emergency Medical Technicians Experiences with Emergency Medical Services Survey, conducted by Harris Interactive.

A total of 1,356 NAEMT members participated in the survey, jointly commissioned by NAEMT and McNeil Consumer & Specialty Pharmaceuticals, and reported that:

More than one in two (52%) have been assaulted by a patient;
One in two (50%) have been exposed to an infectious disease;
Almost one in two (47%) have sustained back injury while performing EMS duties; and
One in five (21%) have contracted an illness from a patient.
“Clearly, these findings are striking, and point to an important issue that isn’t being addressed to the level it should,” said NAEMT President-Elect Jerry Johnston. “NAEMT needs to take the lead on assuring that EMS workers on the streets and riding in ambulances every day have the necessary personal protective equipment and training that they need to be safe. We must work closely with other national organizations and our federal partners to assure that EMTS and paramedics can do their jobs without putting themselves in harm’s


Source:
http://firechief.com/ems/naemtsurvey111805/

 

[DT4EMS]

2 quick questions:
Is there an age requirement to participate in the course?

Are there any courses offered in Maryland?

No age requirement......

I have instructors in Maine and PA.......that's as close as I got to you.

 

[MonkeySquasher]

Any attempt to tell someone with that mentality that they are incorrect, wrong, misguided, functionally pithed or whatever the proper description might be results in a grotesque amount of whining and reported posts.

Yeah, because children today have been coddled and told they're perfect, and exposed to the "Everyone's a winner!" and "No one is wrong! No one is stupid!" mentality. Instead of telling a kid they're wrong, and let them taste a little defeat and reality, we buy them ice cream and get them a phone with text messaging.

I think that if EMS personnel were strongly obligated to learn the other fields' relations to their own, it would allow for a greater sense of common cause and fellowship.

I'm going to take this a little out of context for an aside... I truly believe every level of medicine should experience the other level, and same with every responder. Police/Fire/EMS should all know what the other's role, responsibility, and expectations are. Know what they're taught, and what their job is like.

Also, I think everyone in medicine should walk in the other's shoes at some point. Have doctors and nurses on a rig, have EMTs work on a hospital floor handing meds and wiping buttcracks. Not only would this bring better understanding to everyone's jobs/abilities, but also bring a tad of solidarity to the industry.

/end tangent

 

[thatJeffguy]

Because then everyone of my cases where someone smarted off would end with the phrase "...and that's when I shot/tazed/pepper sprayed/sic'ed the dog on/used my ASP baton on them."

That's seriously how you think it would happen? I bet those states with concealed carry laws are just frothing blood at the borders, right? I bet the National Parks are turning into gang-war zones now that us untrustworthy peons have accidentally gotten the magistrate to give us permission to obey the Constitution again, right?

 

[DrParasite]

Any course I teach anywhere, you have an invitation to attend at no cost to make your informed decision. I offer with sincerity. You are in Indiana....... we have one coming up November 6th and 7th. I will even hook you up with a place to stay. All you have to do is get here.

Can I get the same invite? and do you run any courses near NJ?

I'll be honest, I have more respect for what you say now that you are actually quoting stats, as well as your source, than in another thread when you were stating backs with no source.

I'll be even more honest, I don't trust anything I read on the web, especially in an online forum, because any self proclaimed expert can say they are an expert in anything, and there is no verification. I also don't trust your personal business website, because anyone can make a website, and put what they want on it, and there is still no verification.

People on the web make sweeping generalization. "every ems assault should be answered with deadly force." "if you attack my partner, I will beat you with a mag light." "PD goes on every call." "EMS should not enter a scene unless PD is there to secure it." "I'm an expert in xyz, so you need to listen to me, and only me, because I know more than you." "every EMT has barely a HS education, and completed just the basic 120 hour class and nothing further. The thing about these generalizations are they don't apply in most cases. So saying them is often not applicable in most cases, but they still get thrown out there and are taken as gospel by others.

On the web, everyone is an expert. I'm an expert, you are an expert, my cat is an expert, and my opinion is just as valid as yours, and should be treated equally. Quoting sources is one way to gain "street cred" so to speak. simple facts like "ems assaults are the #1 cause of time off" is a prime example of a statement you made and I didn't believe it either. showing your source means you actually did the research, and can actually support your statements. quoting your own website, not so, but the NAEMT, firechief.com, the labor dept, reputable sources, that's how you actually convince people that what you say is credible.

I'm also gonna stand by statement, that I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. That doesn't mean every assault gets responded with deadly force. that also doesn't mean if someone were to attack me, I would support beating the attacker senseless until he stopped moving. Nor does that mean crush the skull of a seizure patient because they are flailing wildly. However, if I am put in a position where it's letting an attacker hurt/kill me (for whatever reason) vs hurting/disabling/last resort killing an attacker who is attempting to hurt or kill me, well, I want to go home at the end of the night. And I'm pretty sure most EMTs would agree, as would most cops.

Allow me to close with this: we are ALL teachers, and we are ALL students. we all bring different experiences to the table. And we can all learn something from everyone else

 

[usafmedic45]

That's seriously how you think it would happen? I bet those states with concealed carry laws are just frothing blood at the borders, right? I bet the National Parks are turning into gang-war zones now that us untrustworthy peons have accidentally gotten the magistrate to give us permission to obey the Constitution again, right?

Wow....you really went off the deep end on that. I don't believe concealed carry is a bad idea at all.

I was talking about myself and my unsuitability to be a LEO. No comment, implicit or implied, about anyone else. I have a low tolerance for threats against myself and if I am given authority to use force, and the situation necessitates it, I have no problem using it. It was a statement that I don't have the disposition to be a LEO because they are more likely to be in those sorts of situations. You missed that point completely apparently. I mean it's understandable because of my failure to use first person language like "I" and "my"....oh wait....

Because then everyone of my cases where someone smarted off would end with the phrase "...and that's when I shot/tazed/pepper sprayed/sic'ed the dog on/used my ASP baton on them."

 

[DT4EMS]

Can I get the same invite? and do you run any courses near NJ?

I'll be honest, I have more respect for what you say now that you are actually quoting stats, as well as your source, than in another thread when you were stating backs with no source.

I'll be even more honest, I don't trust anything I read on the web, especially in an online forum, because any self proclaimed expert can say they are an expert in anything, and there is no verification. I also don't trust your personal business website, because anyone can make a website, and put what they want on it, and there is still no verification.

People on the web make sweeping generalization. "every ems assault should be answered with deadly force." "if you attack my partner, I will beat you with a mag light." "PD goes on every call." "EMS should not enter a scene unless PD is there to secure it." "I'm an expert in xyz, so you need to listen to me, and only me, because I know more than you." "every EMT has barely a HS education, and completed just the basic 120 hour class and nothing further. The thing about these generalizations are they don't apply in most cases. So saying them is often not applicable in most cases, but they still get thrown out there and are taken as gospel by others.

On the web, everyone is an expert. I'm an expert, you are an expert, my cat is an expert, and my opinion is just as valid as yours, and should be treated equally. Quoting sources is one way to gain "street cred" so to speak. simple facts like "ems assaults are the #1 cause of time off" is a prime example of a statement you made and I didn't believe it either. showing your source means you actually did the research, and can actually support your statements. quoting your own website, not so, but the NAEMT, firechief.com, the labor dept, reputable sources, that's how you actually convince people that what you say is credible.

I'm also gonna stand by statement, that I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. That doesn't mean every assault gets responded with deadly force. that also doesn't mean if someone were to attack me, I would support beating the attacker senseless until he stopped moving. Nor does that mean crush the skull of a seizure patient because they are flailing wildly. However, if I am put in a position where it's letting an attacker hurt/kill me (for whatever reason) vs hurting/disabling/last resort killing an attacker who is attempting to hurt or kill me, well, I want to go home at the end of the night. And I'm pretty sure most EMTs would agree, as would most cops.

Allow me to close with this: we are ALL teachers, and we are ALL students. we all bring different experiences to the table. And we can all learn something from everyone else

No worries...... I just try and get people to research the subject. If I can do that with emotion, so be it.

The stats are really sickening when you start to really dig into them. The issue is I speak to people anytime I actually get a name. I try and interview as many people as possible about their incident. They are sickening because agencies still fail to recognize the probelm.
Many times I get shut down by their admin bacause admin may fear I will help the employee go against them........ actually it's not true.

Then to make it worse senior medics make fun of any provider that says they want to report their problem. Heck........ I even have a comment from a CEO fo a hospital that said "they know what happens in the ER, it's just part of the job" The ENA jumped all over that


There is a video clip on my homepage now interviewing the training LT for Dayton Ohio (FD) they have 300 FF's on staff. He along with their Chief attended one of our courses and now they will train all of their staff in our EVE program.

If you look at my site, you will find everything.........including my bio and numerous coments about my course (taken from course evals)........because of exactly what you pointed out........... everyone claims to be an expert. Unlike other places/people that only put the up a teaser...and leave the rest open to interpretation........you can see many of the agencies, entities and actual people you or anyone else can contact to see if what I am teaching is legit.

DT4EMS was created in 1996..........approved for CEU's since 1997. Now there are instructors in several states sharing our program becasue of our train-the-trainer courses. It was not created for profit........but now after investing thousands of hours and dollars......it needs to pay me and my family back.

I am no Ninja.........or "Former World Champion" of anything......... I just seek the truth. I travel, learn then "pressure test" everything to find what works more often than not....in escaping a violent encounter. I am a regular family man who wants to make a difference in the world. Granted it is the world of patient and provider safety..........but that is the world I am familiar with.

And Yes......... I will extend the same invitation to you. PM me......cause the class I can get you into is November 6th and 7th.

 

[got_shoes]

Can I get the same invite? and do you run any courses near NJ?

I'll be honest, I have more respect for what you say now that you are actually quoting stats, as well as your source, than in another thread when you were stating backs with no source.

so you don't believe everything someone writes or post on the internet? good for you, unless they have a stat to back it up? what is preventing you from doing a little research on a subject?


I'll be even more honest, I don't trust anything I read on the web, especially in an online forum, because any self proclaimed expert can say they are an expert in anything, and there is no verification. I also don't trust your personal business website, because anyone can make a website, and put what they want on it, and there is still no verification.

I can understand that to some point, but really why would someone want to make a website and wastet ime and money?

People on the web make sweeping generalization. "every ems assault should be answered with deadly force." "if you attack my partner, I will beat you with a mag light." "PD goes on every call." "EMS should not enter a scene unless PD is there to secure it." "I'm an expert in xyz, so you need to listen to me, and only me, because I know more than you." "every EMT has barely a HS education, and completed just the basic 120 hour class and nothing further. The thing about these generalizations are they don't apply in most cases. So saying them is often not applicable in most cases, but they still get thrown out there and are taken as gospel by others.

I would say most EMT's (read basics)have a HS education. with very little real life experience.

On the web, everyone is an expert. I'm an expert, you are an expert, my cat is an expert, and my opinion is just as valid as yours, and should be treated equally. Quoting sources is one way to gain "street cred" so to speak. simple facts like "ems assaults are the #1 cause of time off" is a prime example of a statement you made and I didn't believe it either. showing your source means you actually did the research, and can actually support your statements. quoting your own website, not so, but the NAEMT, firechief.com, the labor dept, reputable sources, that's how you actually convince people that what you say is credible.

any source can be used from any website to prove anything you want, further more you stated earlier that is not ok to do.

I'm also gonna stand by statement, that I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. That doesn't mean every assault gets responded with deadly force. that also doesn't mean if someone were to attack me, I would support beating the attacker senseless until he stopped moving. Nor does that mean crush the skull of a seizure patient because they are flailing wildly. However, if I am put in a position where it's letting an attacker hurt/kill me (for whatever reason) vs hurting/disabling/last resort killing an attacker who is attempting to hurt or kill me, well, I want to go home at the end of the night. And I'm pretty sure most EMTs would agree, as would most cops.

Okay so what would you support? This entire statement contradicts itself. the fact that you would even make a statement saying 12 rather then 6 shows that IMO that you would support hurting a pt/ attacker. And really do you know enough about how certain disease processes can present with a manic type pt?

Allow me to close with this: we are ALL teachers, and we are ALL students. we all bring different experiences to the table. And we can all learn something from everyone else

But you already stated earlier in your post that you dont believe everything on the internet.But in this day and age with such ease of gaining information you want stats to back everything up?