Camera Phone Pics

[Jon]

Karaya might have some interesting input as a PIO, but the whole cameraphone thing might be interesting.
My company has an "accident kit" with a disposable camera, crash reporting paperwork, etc, that I have no hesitation opening, and using the camera to document whatever needs to be documented. I would not use my personal cell phone camera...

+1


My concern would be getting dinged down the road for having pt. info on my cell phone... or emailing said photos to someone, and then have work turn around and say it was against policy.

I've used a camera phone at work for a couple of years... both in security and in EMS... but never for Pt. photos... I've used it to document things like damage to the rig or station (that usually wasn't caused by me) and email to my chief so he could see what I was complaining about.

 

[Akulahawk]

Cameras on scene can be VERY useful...as long as chain of custody of the images is maintained. I will NOT use a personal cell for work as my phone could end up being subpoena'd as evidence in a lawsuit. It's far better to have a company camera do the "shooting" and using company equipment for transmission of those images to the recipient... like a trauma center.

They'll want to know what kinds of forces were involved, and a picture can show that far better than I can describe it.

 

[Sasha]

We don't have work issues cameras, although that's a good idea. I considered buying a disposable camera to keep in my bag should such an occasion arrise again. I'm not necessarily opposed to taking pictures with written permission, but oppose to it on my own camera which is easy for it to get into the wrong hands and I wouldn't want to take that responsiblity.

Turns out pictures would've been useful for what the family is now complaining about. As of now there is no policy regarding photographing patient injuries, however maybe this will get a policy written.

 

[ResTech]

I would not be comfortable with using my own phone to take patient pics. I don't want to be accused of taking inappropriate photos or be a suspect if they should ever leak out where they should not.

My volly station carries polaroid cameras... this was awhile back so they may have gotten digital now.... but we used to take pictures of MVC's to show the docs the mechanism of injury and to attach the photos to our care reports for future use in recalling events, etc.

 

[mycrofft]

Slippery.

Weigh benefit to risk, the latter being to the pt as well as to you.
Occasionally a photo is better than a description, a video with good light is better, but I think mostly ER and hospital people just want to get a stable and live pt asap.
If you, as a matter of "habit and custom", take photos, your cell may be subpoenable in a suit, criminal case or actoin to strip a license, and if photos are deleted, the question "Why?" may be raised. Additionally, a savvy lawyer might subpoena any accounts you have such as Photobucket, Myspace, etc., and to discover those your hardrives might be searched or impounded. Ditto your camera or cellphone.
Me? I pass. We stopped taking Polaroids years ago and let LE take the evidenciary stuff, which they have stopped doing also.

 

[Seaglass]

My place also won't let us use a camera phone on duty, and will fire us if we make pictures of accident scenes or fires public without official approval. They're really strict about it. A guy I know almost got fired for posting a picture of his own car after an accident... and both the accident and posting occurred off-duty.

We do have a few department cameras lying around, and they're used occasionally for publicity photos, law enforcement gathering evidence, and the like. I wouldn't touch one without orders, though. Mistakes are supposed to be documented on paper only.

 

[JPINFV]

On what grounds are they using to even threaten someone with terminiation for pictures taken outside of work? If the accident occured off duty, then it shouldn't come under the scrutiny of the employer.

 

[EMSLaw]

On what grounds are they using to even threaten someone with terminiation for pictures taken outside of work? If the accident occured off duty, then it shouldn't come under the scrutiny of the employer.

You'd think that, but you might be wrong. If your employee handbook or employment contract has a morals clause - that is, it makes it a violation to do anything that brings disrepute upon your employer, then who knows.

And it's a matter of state law anyway. I understand Florida isn't exactly known for it's worker protection laws, for example - though I don't practice there, so I don't know.

But I can tell you I have had cases involving employees who were terminated for actions which occurred outside the workplace, and in those cases, the facts of which varied, the employers were often successful.

 

[Luno]

Hmmmm...

Just a general curiosity, because this sounds kind of... fuzzy to me.

We caused injury to a patient yesterday. It was a mistake, and we feel bad about it, however, we are being told that we should've taken pictures of the wounds for evidence and documentation with our camera phones.

However, I feel that violates the patient's privacy and is a biiiiig can of worms should the pictures somehow make its way to people who are not directly involved in the situation and have no business with them. I would never send the pictures around, but I would rather not have that responsiblity.

Does your company have a policy for this? What are your thoughts on cell phone pictures of caregiver inflicted injuries?

I guess I can throw my two cents in on this, but here's the caveat, I am not risk management for an Ambulance Company. That being said, I have done over 100 liability investigations with another EMS provider. I can't comment on your company's policies, but I will say that we will almost never photograph injuries. Nothing that has blood, lacerations, broken bones, etc... The injuries are what they are, and are documented in MIRs/PCRs as well as hospital reports, doc statements, X-rays, etc... Those injuries are relatively static and unchanging, unless there is a reason to believe that the patient was harmed again by another provider, or was not in the care of a provider between the incident and the medical evaluation. When we did liability investigations, we would focus more closely on things that might change, for example, surfaces, wet/dry, lighting, anything the might require maintenance and might be serviced after the incident, to cover the liability. Another aspect with liability investigations is policy and training, so if I were investigating this, I'd look at the incident, and if training or lack of adequate training, played a role. I would also look at if there was a difference between training, and established ways of doing things. Another angle is if another person of the same level of training and under the same circumstances would through their actions arrived at the same accident. Anyway, long story short, IMHO, do not take pictures of any injury without a written company policy of how it is to be done, what it's to be used for, a directive that you are required to take pictures as part of your job, and a written agreement from the patient. Best of luck to you, and hopefully nothing becomes of it...

 

[Seaglass]

On what grounds are they using to even threaten someone with terminiation for pictures taken outside of work? If the accident occured off duty, then it shouldn't come under the scrutiny of the employer.

Policy says no accident pictures on Facebook, and I think the supervisor was looking for any reason to crack down on him. The supervisor also said he didn't realize it was his own car, at first.

Everyone agrees that's taking it too far, but I'm pretty sure we can be fired for some off-duty stuff, particularly if it involves a run-in with the law. If we can't be hired with it on our record, I suspect doing it will get us fired.

 

[JPINFV]

There's obviously a difference between crimes and personal life. Being fired for posting pictures of your own car following an accident would be like being fired because there's a picture of you drinking a can of beer at a weekend BBQ with friends.

 

[mycrofft]

If you signed a "no beer on weekends" clause....

then yeah. Imagine a schoolteacher who posed for Playboy...oh, wait I don't have to imagine! (October 1967 I believe...). Gone in sixty seconds.

That is one reason I don't like Facebook, Myspace, etc. You feel invulnerable becuase you are facing a computer screen and feel anonymous, but the minute you tell someone at your work or anyone they know...basically public knowledge and probably on your boss's "favorites" list.

 

[Sasha]

They're going to sue, let's see how well my reports hold up in court!

 

[Medic One]

Our policy is no pictures period!!!

There is a Hippa problem there also..the patient needs to be ok with the pcitures and if so a waiver should be signed.

Our policy is no pictures while on duty during calls....No pictures a crash, fire, patient injuries, etc....

We do allow pictures that are of employees only in the building doing training etc....We also have a policy of NO pitcures of employees in uniform to be posted on the web such as facebook/myspace without prior consent from the service.

We know the pictures are out there but it protects us a little bit.

As far as hosp staff giving you a hard time about no providing pictures of a crash etc... just say it is against our policy and if you have further questions please contact my supervisor and pass the buck on them...

 

[EMSLaw]

They're going to sue, let's see how well my reports hold up in court!

Sorry to hear that. Good luck!

To paraphrase Ambrose Bierce, litigation is a process by which a man goes in a pig and comes out a sausage.

 

[wyoskibum]

I have to admit, this part gives me pause. It's true that many lawsuits could probably be avoided by an apology, since all the patient or victim really wants is to be validated in their feeling that some wrong was done to them.

As an Attorney you know that a majority of the time people sue because they are pissed off or they perceive that someone is trying to cover-up or hide what happened. A small minority are the people who think they are going to get rich or a Personal Injury Lawyer get their hooks into them.

On the other hand, your apology would almost certainly be used as an admission if you were sued and went to court. To avoid going onto a tangent about this, admissions of parties to the suit are admissible, and are not considered to be hearsay.

What is wrong with that? Facts are fact! Let's say that you accidentally dropped a patient. You say "I'm sorry, it was an accident". You aren't admitting anything isn't going into the discoverable incident report that you fill out. It is exactly what you are going to say in your testimony should there be litigation down the road. Unless you are advocating that they commit perjury and deny dropping the patient.

So, your company's lawyer might not be terribly happy if you say you're sorry. Though as a human being, I know confession is good for the soul and all.

You start getting lawyers involved then it really complicates things! ;-D

On the original topic - if the company wants pictures, they should provide a camera. You don't want to open yourself up to having your cell phone become evidence that you are under a duty to preserve.

Exactly. In fact, if you were involved in the incident, you shouldn't have any part in the accident investigation other than completing the incident report. If you employer wants more done, then a Supervisor should do any accident investigation and take any pictures.

Of course, let me add the usual disclaimer: "I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Anything I've posted is my opinion only and should not be construed as legal advise. My post are for entertainment purposes only. Should you find yourself involved in litigation, then I will feel bad for you and really bad if any of my opinions add to your troubles."

 

[wyoskibum]

They're going to sue, let's see how well my reports hold up in court!

Let's see if even gets to court! Accidents happen every day. They will have to prove that they were injured as a result of what happened and also prove that you were negligent. More than likely, they are hoping to get a quick settlement from the insurance company.

Of course, let me add the usual disclaimer: "I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express. Anything I've posted is my opinion only and should not be construed as legal advise. My post are for entertainment purposes only. Should you find yourself involved in litigation, then I will feel bad for you and really bad if any of my opinions add to your troubles."

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Around here, you can only take pictures for four reasons... for educational purposes (you HAVE to be active EMS educator), documentation for a motor vehicle collision, to show the doctor the damage to the vehicle in aforementioned motor vehicle collision, or to text pictures of EKGs to one of the local hospitals. In all four instances, there may be NO identifying markings (pictures of the patient's face, tattoos, etc.).

As for your pending lawsuit, Sasha... good luck... pack a lunch.