Athiests in EMS

[SeeNoMore]

This thread is for a casual discussion amongst athiests in EMS, and whether/how this affects your views on your profession. I thought of this after being told by multiple folks with years in the field that "if you are not religious now, you will be or you will fail" under the assumption that no one that did not believive in God could stand the stress and perhaps feelings of powerlessness (as in when a pt is going to die no matter what you or the hospital can do).

I also find it intersting to deal with the many religious pts I encounter, who have asked me to pray with or for them, or whether I am religious. I of course do not enter into a discussion of my feelings on this, but try to be supportive and non committal as in

" I was raised catholic, how about you"

or

"We will do everything I can, we are going to be at the hospital soon etc..."

I also wonder whether you have ever felt friction with partners or members of EMS about this issue. I've found most people to be fairly respectful of it, if a little condescending at times. It's more often my sexuality or left wing views that get me into trouble!

Lastly, I know none of this effects pt care, but despite that these types of issues come up especially when you work closely with people, or form close bonds like in a medic class.

 

[JJR512]

How about agnostics, are they (including me) welcome in this thread?

I don't personally believe there is "God" in the sense of a supreme deity, a conscious, willful entity with the power to deliberately do things. However, I do not believe that God does not exist; I just don't believe that he does. It may sound like the same thing, but it's not to me.

I do not strongly believe there is no such thing as God, as is the typical atheist view. I strongly believe that it is highly unlikely that God exists, but I am not sure of that, or am unwilling to commit myself to that viewpoint. I'm willing to keep an open mind that I could be wrong.

I believe more in the scientific explanations for things. I believe that science doesn't have it entirely right, but I think they are much closer to the truth than any religious explanation. I know science is evolving as new discoveries are made and refinements, or even the total debunking, of old theories and even "laws" happens all the time. This is part of what is attractive about science: its willingness to change and adapt, and to say it was wrong. Religion, at least no religion I am familiar with, is willing to say it was wrong. With religion, it's always "THIS is what happened, period. Either accept it or go to hell."

I believe humans are a naturally curious species. We like to understand things, we like to know why and how. Early in our history, we lacked the tools and knowledge that have lead to the scientific explanations for things, but we still wanted to know WHY. Why does that big bright ball move across the sky every day? Why does it get dark at night; where does the light go? What's that little white ball that moves across the sky most nights, and why does it change shape? Why does water come from the sky? What's past the farthest place I've ever been? What will it be like after my body falls to the ground and I never move again? We wanted to know the answers to these, and thousands of other questions. We couldn't explain them scientifically so we invented supernatural explanations.

As far as we knew, nothing happened without something making it happen. A stick dam doesn't appear in a stream unless a beaver builds it there. A pile of rocks doesn't appear unless we pick up the rocks and build it. So surely that big bright ball of light in the sky doesn't move across the sky unless someone moves it. And so on. First there were gods for every little thing, then it became one god for everything.

Now we have science. And who knows, maybe some day there will be a completely knew way of understanding the universe, and people of that future age will look back on today's science just as modern-day Christians look back on paganism.

Anyway, it's never been a problem for me in EMS. I don't go around telling everyone I meet about my views and beliefs. If I'm asked, just as in this thread, I'll explain what I happen to believe. And I explain it as just that, a belief. I never tell anyone I know I'm right, because in fact I don't. Like I said earlier, I have an open mind to the fact I could be wrong. And I expect the same open-mindedness in everyone else, and it really irritates me when I come across someone who wants to tell me that whatever his or her belief is is not a belief but is factual knowledge, is absolutely right, without any possibility otherwise.

It can be weird and frustrating sometimes, though, when a patient or family wants to talk about God, and how God will make everything OK, or it's OK to die and go up to Heaven where one will be reunited, etc. Nobody's ever asked me to pray with them, thankfully. In these situations I just feel a bit ill-at-ease. I don't really know what to say, but I know not to say anything directly contradictory to whatever their beliefs are. And figuring out how to avoid that can sometimes be difficult.

 

[SeeNoMore]

Thanks for your reply JJR512, of course agnostics are welcome.

And just to be clear, discussions of religion are not typically started by me, but in more than a few occasions have been started AT me. I agree that unelss you know someone and have a relationship (as with a trusted partner) it's not always a wise thing to bring up. Nor approrpriate typically.

Yeah I've been asked to pray with pts twice. One pt was not very oriented, to so gentle reassurance sort of moved the issue forward on it's own. The other pt was a little more awkward. I was also a new new EMT. He ended up just praying out loud (a little dramatically at that primarily because his back hurt him on the stretcher) as I continued to do what I did, he did not seem offended, and his condition was as far as I know, not that critical. I think he could tell I was a little at a loss lol

 

[abckidsmom]

It can be weird and frustrating sometimes, though, when a patient or family wants to talk about God, and how God will make everything OK, or it's OK to die and go up to Heaven where one will be reunited, etc. Nobody's ever asked me to pray with them, thankfully. In these situations I just feel a bit ill-at-ease. I don't really know what to say, but I know not to say anything directly contradictory to whatever their beliefs are. And figuring out how to avoid that can sometimes be difficult.

How about "I don't pray, but I'm happy to sit with you." That's pretty non-committal and non-offensive IMHO.

Also, "It's nice that you find comfort in your beliefs at times like this."

I'm an expert at non-committal speech when it's planned beforehand. I'm a Christian, so I don't pray with people in the names of their gods. I also believe that while I'm ready to talk about spiritual things with people, I only do so if they clearly ask.

Like the OP, I think the key is just being respectful of people.

So that makes an atheist, an agnostic, and a christian. What kind of atheist thread is this?

 

[akflightmedic]

As an atheist in EMS, I have had more bias thrown against me than I ever would at someone of any other faith. I observe that I and other like minded people display far more tolerance, respect and understanding of the differences in the human condition than those of faith (Christianity to be more specific).That is one of the great hypocrisy's which drive me nuts, but that is an entirely different discussion.

With regards to how it affects me is the simple fact that most people assume that since they are religious then everyone else must be as well. They also assume because I have compassion and a desire to help my fellow man then certainly it must be a higher power working through me. This is a rather large annoyance as well because I have chosen to do or not do everything in my life which led to this career and how I perform within it. But even stating that is not enough because the die hards will say that is simply the lord giving me direction...you simply can not argue that type of "logic".

When it comes to patient care, I have had many patients over the years ask to take my hand and pray with them. I have no issue providing the contact and in my opinion, that is all they really wanted anyways, an excuse to reach out and connect, to feel like they are not alone. I respectfully stay silent while they take a moment as long as it is not going to impact their care. I have had the many God Bless yous, thank Jesus for you and similar bestowals; I simply smile and continue on. I will never discuss my personal beliefs with a patient, I have many ways to tactfully dodge the question. I also avoid the discussions at work because like sexual orientation and politics, they simply do not belong.

I will walk away from any conversation involving these things and not apologize for it. It is never initiated by me, always by the person wishing to proselytize. Another annoyance for me is when people find Jesus and suddenly feel "complete" and better about themselves, they automatically assume anyone else who does not know Jesus must feel exactly the same as they did. They can not comprehend that some people are already content with their life even without church, Jesus or God in their life <gasp>.

One final thing for now until this topic develops further, I did have the experience of baptizing a newborn. I have written about this before and it is quite the irony of ironies but it does make for a great story these many years later. I delivered a breech child who had multiple internal complications which the parents were already aware of. They knew the child was not going to survive for any great amount of time after delivery. The father was in the back of the rig with us and after delivery they asked me to baptize the child. Having never been trained in this in paramedic school or anywhere , I pulled out a bottle of sterile water and said words that I had seen on TV. The parents did an amen and were visibly relieved. Apparently I had just saved their child so he could go home to Jesus. During this call, my patients were the parents, not the newborn which was dying. It was no sweat off my back to say words and perform a rite which has zero impact on my daily life. I simply did what was needed to be done and moved on. But again, those die hards will say the lord was trying to reach me and yet again I have missed his call.

 

[SeeNoMore]

Ak, that is a crazy story. Sounds like something from an over the top EMS tv show. Quite an experience. :excl:

 

[Sassafras]

I am a preacher's wife turned atheist (my husband is also atheist now). I do appreciate the theological discussions on a historical or anthropological level and I feel it helps me relate to my religious based patients. However, discussion and prayer are two different things. I've not been asked to pray with a patient, but it would feel like a lie to me if I were to oblige that request. I am genuinely curious about everyone's story, partners, patients, neighbors alike. I know they all have their reasons for why they believe as they do and it is not my place to interfere with that. However, times like December I find rather irritating with the angry protests of keep christ in christmas and it's not a holiday tree or it's not Xmas. If it's not a patient I like to educate them on the history of why there is an X and that it originally was not a christmas tree but a tree decorated to worship Baal. It's my little form of rebellion I guess. If it's a patient though, I feel that would go against what they need to heal at the moment. I am also one that will say "Happy whatever holiday it is you celebrate this month" and if they say christmas then I repeat "well merry christmas then" or "Happy chanukkah" or whatever. In inter facility transports if I run into someone of a faith I'm not familiar with I will ask questions if they are up to talking. I feel it helps me understand their world view. And I remember back to bible college when my room mate could not interview a rabbi alone and was informed NOT to even shake his hand. It was explained to her that only the rabbis wife was allowed to touch him as a female. So the first jewish patient we picked up from an ER transport (religion was provided on his face sheet before we even made contact), I turned around and asked his wife if he was a rabbi and if it was o.k. for me to treat him or if he would prefer my male partner. My partner was shocked I thought to ask and even knew to ask. The wife was beaming with gratitude that I was concientious of their faith and thanked me. He ended up being just jewish. Not a rabbi and I got to ride in the back and tech him. He told me wonderful tales of his faith and I learned a lot and added a notch to my diversity belt.

I think I'm rambeling at this point, but it's a journey, it's a process and it's important to be sensitive to the needs of our patients while being honest with ourselves in my world view. How that works out for another provider may be different, but I pride myself on being able to relate well with others. I hope it comes across as caring.

 

[akflightmedic]

Sounds like something from an over the top EMS tv show.

And where do you think TV writers get their fodder? From people who post it online or share it with someone else...those TV idiots could never be that creative on their own.

 

[firecoins]

I am an atheist. I don't discuss my views with people. Not their business.

I was born into a Jewsih family. Christianity is "foreign" to me and always has been. I work on Christian holidays and am considered to be apart of the Jew crew.

 

[EMTRyan88]

Im an eclectic Pagan, primarily following Wicca. While I have no problem with other people's belief's since I believe that they all basically have the same idea and goal in mind, other people arent always quite as tolerant. What are some good ways to dodge the question when people ask me about my religion. I think I would feel kind of uncomfortable with a pt asking me to pray with them, but would still do it to put them at ease. I mean its not going to hurt me and might just be enough to help them relax.

 

[HotelCo]

Glad to see I'm not the only one.

I'm lucky, my primary partner is also an atheist. My one-day-a-week partner is a very big christian. He has no problem with my atheism, and I have no problem with his christianity (other than the fact that he plays christian music on the radio).

 

[emt_irl]

i was born and raised a catholic, havent practiced in years though. dont have much time for god stuff anymore, maybe when im old i will again.

thankfully it never comes up when treating patients, and with partners the chit chat is usually ems based, family guy and south park based or other random things we encounter on our crazy travels

 

[Seaglass]

I'm not comfortable discussing my religious beliefs, even though they're pretty mainstream. I've found that otherwise calm and rational folks of any persuasion tend to start foaming at the mouth very quickly when the topic comes up. If a patient wants to talk about it, I'll tell them about hospital chaplains. If there's nothing else to do, though, and my patient doesn't care about my beliefs, I'll pray with them. It doesn't hurt, and can offer a lot of comfort.

Because I'm familiar with a number of religions, I find myself explaining or defending random ones from an academic standpoint often enough with coworkers. Sometimes it leads to confusion about what I believe, but everyone's generally pretty respectful when I tell them I'm not going to talk about it.

 

[firecoins]

I thought of this after being told by multiple folks with years in the field that "if you are not religious now, you will be or you will fail" under the assumption that no one that did not believive in God could stand the stress and perhaps feelings of powerlessness (as in when a pt is going to die no matter what you or the hospital can do). .

I too find such view points to be outright offensive. Thats why I believe in the tooth fairy.

 

[SeeNoMore]

Perhaps it is also an issue of temperment. I never assumed I would save everyone. In fact, having read a lot of the research (when I should have probably been studying what was currently applicable to me :sad: ) I was pretty aware that saving lives is sort of an overstatment compared to the more realistic goal of providing good prehospital care and hopefully decreasing patient morality in a broad sense and or improving patient outcomes.

I am not bothered or shocked by people dying or bad things happening to people that I can not always help. That seems to be the nature of reality.

 

[Phlipper]

One final thing for now until this topic develops further, I did have the experience of baptizing a newborn. I have written about this before and it is quite the irony of ironies but it does make for a great story these many years later. I delivered a breech child who had multiple internal complications which the parents were already aware of. They knew the child was not going to survive for any great amount of time after delivery. The father was in the back of the rig with us and after delivery they asked me to baptize the child. Having never been trained in this in paramedic school or anywhere , I pulled out a bottle of sterile water and said words that I had seen on TV. The parents did an amen and were visibly relieved. Apparently I had just saved their child so he could go home to Jesus. During this call, my patients were the parents, not the newborn which was dying. It was no sweat off my back to say words and perform a rite which has zero impact on my daily life. I simply did what was needed to be done and moved on. But again, those die hards will say the lord was trying to reach me and yet again I have missed his call.

Cool story.

As a fellow Atheist/Humanist I sympathize with you. However, I am lucky in that most of my co-workers, while church-goers in general, are vile and crude and profane and would never get into the "Have you found Jesus?" bit.

 

[Chimpie]

Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.

 

[akflightmedic]

This thread is for a casual discussion amongst atheists in EMS, and whether/how this affects your views on your profession.

Seems like the OP dictated the topic by saying it is for CASUAL DISCUSSION amongst atheists AND whether/how it affects our views on the profession. Seems like two different choices to me and both need not be addressed in order to post.

One might say a moderator is a bit heavy handed and deleted posts which were entirely on topic as the deleted posts certainly qualified as casual discussion amongst like minded individuals.

If someone disagrees or is offended, the title of the thread should have been their first clue to not even look.

 

[firecoins]

Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.

I never saw it get off topic. Every bit of it was about Athiests in EMS.

 

[JJR512]

Let's keep this on topic with EMS or it's going to be closed.

?

I never saw it get off topic. Every bit of it was about Athiests in EMS.

Exactly.