Assault & retaliation/defending yourself

Porta

Porta

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Last week I was assaulted by a pt, )I'm not going to go into the details of it bc I don't know how many of my coworkers are on this forum) and when I got back to the station I had a lot of coworkers telling me stories about what they would do w combative or abusive pts. A lot of the stories sounded like straight up assault (battery?). I take a lot of what they said with a grain of salt, but how many providers are out there who downright assault their pts, instead of passively defending themselves?
 
If a patient legitimately attacks me, they will end up being held down on the ground by me and my crew/partner- how they get there will be situation dependent. So far it's only happened to me one time, about 3 years ago. The guy we had to tackle and pin came in as an unconscious, then as we were assessing him he sprang up without warning and started swinging. Typically my verbal judo works pretty well, though.

ETA: I'm not sure what you qualify as "passive self-defense". My self-defense is whatever it takes to not be being attacked/assaulted any more, be it passive or not.
 
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I personally think that is well within reason. However, knotting up o2 lines and smacking pts w saline bags? I don't think that's ok.
 
Porta said:
I personally think that is well within reason. However, knotting up o2 lines and smacking pts w saline bags? I don't think that's ok.
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That seems like it would take some forethought, planning, and time. It also seems ineffective... :unsure:
 
My answer to that is very simple. I will go sufficiently medieval on them to stop and contain the threat to me or my partner(s). Remember, there are many weapons in an ambulance, including the ambulance itself. Same thing on scene...

That doesn't mean that I'll instantly apply deadly force if it's not warranted... just that I'll do whatever I need to overcome the threat, but I won't be gentlemanly about it.
 
Knotted up O2 line??? As in swinging this through the air slapping them with the force of a wet noodle?
 
Arovetli said:
Knotted up O2 line??? As in swinging this through the air slapping them with the force of a wet noodle?
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:lol: That was a great visual
 
Arovetli said:
Knotted up O2 line??? As in swinging this through the air slapping them with the force of a wet noodle?
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Swinging a dead cat may be more effective... but you might end up hitting other things because the area is too small...
 
Akulahawk said:
Swinging a dead cat may be more effective... but you might end up hitting other things because the area is too small...
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Dead cat is one of my favorites. I hate when other crews forget to replace it after they use it though.

As for defending yourself, the best policy is to avoid any situation that you can. After that your duty is first to your own personal safety and that of your partner. Be conscious of patients demeanor and never give them something to grab onto or give them leverage over you and you should be fine.
 
Do you typically find that your combative patients are usually 5150? Or most of the time is it just a random act that any pt start getting combative?
 
I love where this thread is going. Seriously.
 
Arovetli said:
Knotted up O2 line??? As in swinging this through the air slapping them with the force of a wet noodle?
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I've never done it, one of the Medic's I work with said they had so I'm not sure how effective it would be.
 
Porta said:
I've never done it, one of the Medic's I work with said they had so I'm not sure how effective it would be.
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if you have enough time to do something like this, then you would more than likely have the time to get yourself out of the situation.


I am a big fan of not getting into an altercation or talking the person down but that is not always possible. As at least one other here has said, I will do whatever I have to do to keep myself then my partner safe.
 
I will say that my partner jumped right in, I'm very glad I know I can count on them.
 
I learned a few jointlocks from my krav maga instructor. It's an effective way to eliminate the threat without really harming them
 
Can you do something like that to a combative pt?
If you guys haven't noticed, I'm new to EMS.
 
wannabeHFD said:
I learned a few jointlocks from my krav maga instructor. It's an effective way to eliminate the threat without really harming them
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Porta said:
Can you do something like that to a combative pt?
If you guys haven't noticed, I'm new to EMS.
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If necessary, yes. And more. Only if necessary. Our preference generally is not to be there. That's safest.
 
DT4EMS might chime in if he's still around......

In most situations making eye contact and letting the person know you aren't afraid and have no intentions of fighting will work, always remember you aren't there to fight and have nothing to prove....however at the same time I did not ask to be called and certainly didn't ask to be assaulted in the first place. I have 0 problems defending myself/partner as needed and if that means the the assaulter gets injured in the process then so be it, I hope they do not but then again I hope they don't put me there to begin with.

I have had to go "hands on" with a few ppl before when I was left with no other options and save for one the situation ended with some physical restraining.
 
OP question was how many practitioners out there would physically abuse of patients.

How many? Don't know.

Personally? Never have. I have gone "hands on" but the pts were incoherent and assaultive, and I had LE either behind me or with me on it so it was sanctioned and warranted. Not to mention successful.

Have I seen it? Once. The practitioner had undiagnosed PTSD ( was before that was invented) and at every other time I worked with him for six months was very very good with all types of patients until this one abusive restrained psych patient with alleged OD/suicide attempt spit on him. No physical damage done but that wasn't the point. He quit a couple years later, after I was gone.
 
Very good point My.....AS for me, never would I assault a Pt.

I will say that I came very close one time out of blind reaction when I walked through the door and the woman slung a 2 yr old across the room and into a wall.

But never would I assault a pt. or use anything that could be used against me legally to construe an assault charge.
 
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