Are you Volunteer or Paid?

[Dwindlin]

Bad, bad, bad idea.

Say what you like, but its hard to justify doing it any other way when the service runs less than 500 calls/year. Beside this isn't LA or Miami or New York. This entire county probably has a smaller population than any one of those cities. If we have a disaster somewhere in this county there is a county wide response. So you're argument is moot here.

 

[scottyb]

I also seriously doubt if some will be so gungho for an EMS volunteer job once the education requirements are raised.

I think you may be seriously underestimating the dedication of some volunteers. Educational standards are raised and the training can be achieved with the only cost to the volunteer being time to do the classes, I think you would be seriously impressed with the number of volunteers that will stick it out. That, I will admit, is based on my experience within my company and could be very different in others. Volunteers, just based on the fact that they are volunteers, do not have some objection to becoming better providers and more knowledgeable.

I just went to a conference that was about 50/50 volly/paid, you could not tell a difference between them. My company has EMT-B's to paramedic's and everything in between. There was no noticeable difference between us and the paid.

Also, I did not get this anti volunteer feeling either. It is accepted, mainly because there are some very rural areas and running a paid service with the number of calls we/they receive is not feasible. In a state that is already taxed to the max, it would be a hard sell to rural residents that they need to pay more for a service that is going to sit on its *** most of the time.

 

[VentMedic]

Say what you like, but its hard to justify doing it any other way when the service runs less than 500 calls/year. Beside this isn't LA or Miami or New York. This entire county probably has a smaller population than any one of those cities. If we have a disaster somewhere in this county there is a county wide response. So you're argument is moot here.

So in a county response, are you obligated to your paid EMS employer or the volunteer?

It is called resource management and any paid EMS employer would be foolish to allow their employees do volunteer during a disaster response where their units are needed at max capabililty.

 

[Dwindlin]

So in a county response, are you obligated to your paid EMS employer or the volunteer?

It is called resource management and any paid EMS employer would be foolish to allow their employees do volunteer during a disaster response where their units are needed at max capabililty.

Again, you didn't read what I posted. In a disaster there is a COUNTY response. We're all lumped under one chain of command. Doesn't matter what service you work for at that point.

 

[VentMedic]

I just went to a conference that was about 50/50 volly/paid, you could not tell a difference between them. My company has EMT-B's to paramedic's and everything in between. There was no noticeable difference between us and the paid.

At this time neither the EMT or the Paramedic requires that much time spent on education so that is not a valid argument.

How many other health care professionals spend 2 - 4 years in college only to volunteer at a hospital?

 

[VentMedic]

Again, you didn't read what I posted. In a disaster there is a COUNTY response. We're all lumped under one chain of command. Doesn't matter what service you work for at that point.

Again, whose truck are you on? Whose patch is on your shirt?

 

[Dwindlin]

Again, whose truck are you on? Whose patch is on your shirt?

For someone who claims to so educated you need to work on some reading comprehension.

Though I fail to see why this matters to you, to answer your question, which ever one I can put on faster. If the county disaster plan is activated THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL SERVICE. We are all lumped together, and then assigned to specific MCI duties (triage, treatment, transport, etc..).

 

[scottyb]

At this time neither the EMT or the Paramedic requires that much time spent on education so that is not a valid argument.

How many other health care professionals spend 2 - 4 years in college only to volunteer at a hospital?

One of the paramedics in my squad did go to school, has a degree, is a certified paramedic and a school teacher. I doubt her day job will interfere with a disaster response as school will probably be canceled. Yet another one is a retired navy medic and a paramedic, has his degree and owns a car shop, again not going to get in the way.

 

[VentMedic]

For someone who claims to so educated you need to work on some reading comprehension.

Though I fail to see why this matters to you, to answer your question, which ever one I can put on faster. If the county disaster plan is activated THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL SERVICE. We are all lumped together, and then assigned to specific MCI duties (triage, treatment, transport, etc..).

If you are a paid FF/Paramedic, the FD will not be happy to have you run off to represent a volley EMT squad if their equipment is needed.

A disaster response doesn't just require a bunch of warm bodies but rather it requires those that are needed to get the job done. If you are hauling patients on a volley ambulance rather than doing your paid job with rescue, you are doing your FD a disservice. Part of a disaster response is knowing what people you have for what jobs that must be done and that includes those with special training. Not everyone gets to ride the volley ambulance. There are multiple jobs that must be done in any one disaster. Those with the paid services will more than likely be doing what they are paid to do. You will BE ON THEIR CLOCK for pay. You will be covered under their insurance during a disaster response. Thus, you can call yourself a "volunteer" but you are now a highly paid volunteer. I have yet to work any disaster response where I did not get disaster pay from my paid job and it was really nice pay.

 

[VentMedic]

One of the paramedics in my squad did go to school, has a degree, is a certified paramedic and a school teacher. I doubt her day job will interfere with a disaster response as school will probably be canceled. Yet another one is a retired navy medic and a paramedic, has his degree and owns a car shop, again not going to get in the way.

Are any of those degrees in EMS?

The topic was about those being with a paid and a volunteer EMS service. A 9-5 job with an EMS hobby on the side is another matter.

 

[Dwindlin]

If you are a paid FF/Paramedic, the FD will not be happy to have you run off to represent a volley EMT squad if their equipment is needed.

A disaster response doesn't just require a bunch of warm bodies but rather it requires those that are needed to get the job done. If you are hauling patients on a volley ambulance rather than doing your paid job with rescue, you are doing your FD a disservice. Part of a disaster response is knowing what people you have for what jobs that must be done and that includes those with special training. Not everyone gets to ride the volley ambulance. There are multiple jobs that must be done in any one disaster. Those with the paid services will more than likely be doing what they are paid to do. You will BE ON THEIR CLOCK for pay. You will be covered under their insurance during a disaster response. Thus, you can call yourself a "volunteer" but you are now a highly paid volunteer. I have yet to work any disaster response where I did not get disaster pay from my paid job and it was really nice pay.

Again. You're arguing with me for no reason....this is how it is done here, I'm not presenting you with a hypothetical. Would this work in a huge metropolitan area? Probably not. The reason I brought it up is because of the ignorant blanket statements that people are making on here. There is no one good or correct way to do things. Things that work in a large metropolitan area WOULD NOT fly in a small rural area. Again, you can argue till you pass out, but I am telling you, it is how we do it here, and guess what...it works.

 

[JPINFV]

For someone who claims to so educated you need to work on some reading comprehension.

Though I fail to see why this matters to you, to answer your question, which ever one I can put on faster. If the county disaster plan is activated THERE IS NO INDIVIDUAL SERVICE. We are all lumped together, and then assigned to specific MCI duties (triage, treatment, transport, etc..).

So a county wide response is required. The paid service says "I can provide A amount of units immediately and another B amount of units in 10 minutes as they call crews in.

The volunteer service tells the county that they can send C number of units immediately and another D number of units in 10 minutes as they call crews in.

You're off duty and get called by both your paid and volunteer service, who do you go to? This is important because both services are counting on you being available to staff their trucks. Since there's only one of you, then one of the services might not be able to reach their commitment due to lack of staffing. Even under a unified command structure, you can only staff one apparatus from one company and now the incident command might not get the amount of ambulances that they've been promised.

 

[VentMedic]

Again. You're arguing with me for no reason....this is how it is done here, I'm not presenting you with a hypothetical. Would this work in a huge metropolitan area? Probably not. The reason I brought it up is because of the ignorant blanket statements that people are making on here. There is no one good or correct way to do things. Things that work in a large metropolitan area WOULD NOT fly in a small rural area. Again, you can argue till you pass out, but I am telling you, it is how we do it here, and guess what...it works.

Are you saying you will not be paid by your paid employer for time spent at a disaster? I would seriously find another employer.

Once you are paid by your paid employer, you are NOT a volunteer ambulance EMT.

This doesn't matter if your county has 10 people or 10 million people.

As JP points out, counting the warm bodies twice will do a disservice to that county if both services need you.

 

[Dwindlin]

So a county wide response is required. The paid service says "I can provide A amount of units immediately and another B amount of units in 10 minutes as they call crews in.

The volunteer service tells the county that they can send C number of units immediately and another D number of units in 10 minutes as they call crews in.

You're off duty and get called by both your paid and volunteer service, who do you go to? This is important because both services are counting on you being available to staff their trucks. Since there's only one of you, then one of the services might not be able to reach their commitment due to lack of staffing. Even under a unified command structure, you can only staff one apparatus from one company and now the incident command might not get the amount of ambulances that they've been promised.

Command staff is all predetermined. As is where the apparatus will come from. It is not as simple as I've laid out here. But I didn't feel like typing a book. Everyone is paid during a disaster response (comes from county budget not local). So generally most of the personnel actually working the disaster area are off duty if they are from paid services. Paid service personnel are left on trucks that aren't taken for disaster purposes to cover for normal normal 911 calls.

Now it also staggers based on disaster size. Would a full county respose be made for a bus accident? Of course not, most local jurisdictions have local plans in place for stuff like this. I'm talking huge disasters (tornado/major storms being most common in this area).

 

[scottyb]

Are any of those degrees in EMS?

The topic was about those being with a paid and a volunteer EMS service. A 9-5 job with an EMS hobby on the side is another matter.

Yes. I guess I did not make it clear. I believe they both went through a paramedic degree program at local colleges. I think that neither one had out of pocket expense for school though, based on benefits of there previous employer, Uncle Sam, but I am not sure.

I was just saying that volunteer does not always mean less dedicated or less educated. Or, resistant to more education for that matter. Volunteer works well for my rural area, and I agree that not all models with work in all areas. Each area needs to do what works for them. I also don't think, for better or worse, that we will see all paid EMS in either of our lifetimes.

 

[JPINFV]

Command staff is all predetermined. As is where the apparatus will come from.

It's not as simple as that though and this isn't about command staff. This is about resource management. Those ambulances won't drive themselves or treat the patients themselves, correct?

 

[Dwindlin]

It's not as simple as that though and this isn't about command staff. This is about resource management. Those ambulances won't drive themselves or treat the patients themselves, correct?

No of course not. I think people under estimate the prevalence of volunteer services in rural portions of the country. There are very, very few paid service in Preble county Ohio. So the overwhelming majority of providers (both fire and ems) are volunteer. So, as I said, when the county plan goes into effect it relies heavily on volunteer's, which in this region is easy to do, people WILL show up.

Again, you can't compare metro areas to rural areas. There is a different mind set (I assume since people seem so shocked by some of this). For example people who have non-ems jobs are usually completely free and clear to leave their job in response to a call (because again there aren't many calls so its not like an everyday thing). And if it were a disaster or MCI situation, I think employers would urge their staff who was part of a dept. to leave. I someone think this wouldn't fly in large metro areas, but it is expected here.

Again, my only point is there is more than one way to skin a cat. And these blanket statements being tossed around are ignorant.

 

[VentMedic]

Well you definitely hit all the points as to why states like Florida do not depend volunteer ambulance services. When a disaster strikes, even in our tiniest little towns, people want to know there will be someone showing up. They don't want the possibility that some will take their other "real" job more seriously or that they will realize they have little obligation and focus on their family. We even have this issue with hurricanes when some want to stay with their homes and families to protect them but they know as a paid public employee they do have an obligation to the public as well. Thus, Florida had the initiative to provide all paid ALS 911 service to its citizens and to provide enough coverage from paid FDs throughout the state. This includes big cities and tiny little towns. It also includes the rich neighborhoods and the very poor as well the black, white or brown neighborhoods. We don't say you're poor so you don't deserve ALS and BLS volley is all you get. States have resources but usually it is those in the volunteer services that don't want to change. They usually attempt to prevent any of those "paid strangers" comin' to their town.

 

[daedalus]

I think you may be seriously underestimating the dedication of some volunteers. Educational standards are raised and the training can be achieved with the only cost to the volunteer being time to do the classes, I think you would be seriously impressed with the number of volunteers that will stick it out.

See, I don't think you understand that part of the reason EMS educational standards are so low is because of the volunteer folks fight it tooth and nail.

Also, how dedicated would volunteers be if they had to staff IFT rigs? Discharging patients from the ER is just as vital as bringing them in because if frees up beds and resources.

 

[scottyb]

See, I don't think you understand that part of the reason EMS educational standards are so low is because of the volunteer folks fight it tooth and nail.

Also, how dedicated would volunteers be if they had to staff IFT rigs? Discharging patients from the ER is just as vital as bringing them in because if frees up beds and resources.

My company does bring discharges home if they live in our area of operation. We do not have a hospital in my town and the closest is 25-30 minutes away. This is vital for some of our elderly residents and residents of the nursing home.

I do understand that volunteers fight raising educational standards. I am unsure as to whether or not those are mostly Fire Departments that wish to maintain there EMS personnel and how many are actual Ambulance only volunteer organizations. I don't have answer for that yet and I have not had a chance to research it.

Again, in my Ambulance Squad, I do not see the resistance to the new upcoming standards. We had a taste of them in the conference we just attended, and I am for one excited to learn more. I guess my opinion is bias based on my experiences with my squad. I can not speak on others. Maybe those with a little more time in EMS and have been on a few different squads would know better.