Are we EMS brothers and sisters?

[Ridryder911]

Usually "brotherhood" are endorsed and promoted within "blue collar" vocations. There are many reasons. Usually, to promote harmony in an associated group and is much easier where there is no technicality of the job rather a group or participation is needed to perform a specific task or function.

Is there and should there be comradely? Again a big YES! Yet again, I have been involved in the "brotherhood" and was one of the reasons I left the Fire Service. The "good ole boy" and "its just part of being in the brotherhood" mentality was not only unrealistic but became dangerous and stunted the growth of systems many times.

Yes, I believe in honoring fallen comrades and helping those within our profession. That can be done and is done by other professions on a daily basis, without a "brotherhood". As was mentioned most "professionals" do not have such peer groups yet can and do have a bounding.

Unfortunately what many miss is that EMS is Medical. Nothing more or less. Now, where that is placed and distributed is dependent upon the system, but its main and only focus is medical. All of those not within the medical system should recognize that it is a reperesentation of the emergency medicine. Any other associated specialties is just that; an associated or adjunct.

This is part of the problem in EMS. Many do not know what really are and always wanting to be something else other than what we are....

R/r 911

 

[JPINFV]

Strange. The only times I've ever heard of someone using phrases like "your brother EMT" is after they do something really stupid. I actually remember the first time I heard that phrase. A guy on Myspace (I don't use that site anymore, never kept my interest) in an EMS group was offering to steal a pulse ox to send to someone that posted a sob story (mother living at a high altitude with a child who had resp. problems) since the 'company wouldn't miss it.' I was aked if I would really 'turn in a brother EMT' when I pointed out that it's probably not a good idea to make posts like that when you have the company you work for posted in your profile.

 

[Bosco578]

I always thought EMS was more like a "Mother Hood"...........

 

[mikie]

I always thought EMS was more like a "Mother Hood"...........

I'd say that you're the Mother of EMS ^_^

And the rest of us, we're siblings.

 

[Bosco578]

I'd say that you're the Mother of EMS ^_^

And the rest of us, we're siblings.

Perhaps....I don't think my wife would like me in one of her dresses......lol

 

[Sasha]

Strange. The only times I've ever heard of someone using phrases like "your brother EMT" is after they do something really stupid. I actually remember the first time I heard that phrase. A guy on Myspace (I don't use that site anymore, never kept my interest) in an EMS group was offering to steal a pulse ox to send to someone that posted a sob story (mother living at a high altitude with a child who had resp. problems) since the 'company wouldn't miss it.' I was aked if I would really 'turn in a brother EMT' when I pointed out that it's probably not a good idea to make posts like that when you have the company you work for posted in your profile.

Whoa. Pulse oxs are expensive. Have you ever looked into buying one of those? Yeesh!

 

[sixmaybemore]

Whoa. Pulse oxs are expensive. Have you ever looked into buying one of those? Yeesh!

When I needed to buy one for my kid, I was shocked at how much they were. Mine is a pocket model and was $900 (which I managed to get the ins. co. to pay for), and while I've found it to be accurate, it's more of a stop gap measure. If his readings are off, then it's off to the ER for us to see what The Big Machine says.

 

[HeavyCrow]

Any of you who have been in this longer then me (and that would be most), have the right to call EMS what you will....job, 9-5, profession, vocation, life choice, etc etc etc. I will continue to see it as a brotherhood(male and female) and hope that when the chips are down, I run into/with people with the same attitude. My dept is full-time, part-time, and vollies. We are Paramedics, intermediates, B's, and Rescue Techs. When we run calls, we watch out for each others well being...when we stumble, we grab each other and help our buddy up, or just show him the way to go...we put our lives on hold when there is a storm, disaster, car wreck, plane crash, etc...doing all of this while maybe never having met some of the folks we work directly with before, or maybe not even knowing them well enough to have learned their name yet. But we are on scene for a joint purpose...to help others and to be there for one another. We might not always love or even like one another, but that goes out the window when we have a job to do. We all do a difficult job that other people are not willing to do. I say that makes us a brotherhood. Not always touchy-feelgood, not always getting along, not always sharing the same veiws, not always backing someone mistakes. But a brotherhood by definition: (1) the quality or state of being brothers, (2) the association for a particular purpose (3) the whole body of persons engaged in a business or profession. No, I will never cover up a brothers lies, but I will d#$n well put it on the line for him because I know he would do the same for me. That is who I want backing me up. And I would rather have 10 good bros then 100 Paragods , intermediates, or so called Super Bs who only want to puff themselves up by putting others down and try to make everyone believe they know all, see all, and do all. I dont care if you are an MD with 20 years experience...if your heart isnt in it, I will find a witchdoctor or voodoo priest to work on me. As long as you have your "*** in the grass" with me when things are bad, I will call you a brother!

 

[mycrofft]

ridryder your comment spurred me to think. (Now I have to sweep up).

in my newly rediscovered opinion, there is "EMS" and there is emergency medicine. Small case emergency medicine is a skillset which can be taught to anyone who wants it, hopefully with some sense of ethics and humanity but not necessarily. Some wrench tightener on an oil platform may save his buddy's life by knowing about cervical immobilization and burn treatment, but he is not "an 'EMS' ".

I think of "an EMS" as a person who has been educated and advanced her/his skill level regarding "emergency treatment of the sick and injured" (to steal the mission/title of the original EMT textbooks), is engaged in such pursuit on a pretty frequent basis, understands or at least has been taught about the ethical moral and legal issues. I tend to think of prehospital settings, but not necessarily.

In the past such a phrase an "an EMS" would be sort of silly as there were only two categories of workers exclusive of nurses and doctors who could render emergency medicalcare above first aid: EMT's and paramedics (EMT-A, EMT-P, period). Then everyone started sprouting their own version, splintering the field. I'd like to see a thread or WIKI or something with a listing of officially/nationally recognized varieties of EMS certifications, licenses, etc.

Two observations on "brotherhood", cliques, and mutual coverage. As far as the comment about all other medical professionals covering for each other, you've never been around nurses very long. Wrongful termination fights including our union, sure, but most nurses would toss another onto the third rail in a heartbeat.
I was exposed to the "brotherhood" concept in another way when I was USAF; our old school brown shoe Deputy Chief (#2 guy there) would hold a whole crew responsible if a member screwed up professionally. We were our brothers' keepers.

 

[BossyCow]

Okay, so rather than post in response to my 'warm and fuzzy' thread, start a separate one? Sigh.. see, this is exactly what I'm talking about! Avoidance of directly addressing the issue.

I enjoy the majority of my co-workers. I work well with different agencies and have even been asked to substitute teach at some of them. On scenes I have a reputation of being able to work well with others.. but frankly... the behavior on this thread makes me wonder if I'm only hearing that because someone doesn't want to be 'harsh' with me, and in reality I'm a pretty poor EMT. (Okay, I know better, but do you see my point?)

When I tell someone what I believe to be a truth, from my heart, based on my experience in EMS and with a goal of truly giving the person a perspective that I believe is necessary to their EMS experience, its perceived as 'harsh'.

I have some issues with that. What we do is harsh. Someone breathing 8 times a minute in the back of the rig with ALS unavailable and the ER 30 minutes away is harsh. Turning to the EMT that is my partner on the scene and having their hands shake so badly that they can't get me a B/P is harsh. Having the only EMT available to assist me be unable to do basic vitals is harsh. Having to correct hand placement during CPR is harsh.

I'm sorry if those people are 'trying the best they can' if in that particular instance, 'their best' isn't good enough for what the patient needs.

Yes EMS is my brothers and sisters, but then I believe that humanity is my brothers and sisters. But when it comes to the back of the rig, with a pt on the gurney I make some assumptions about my fellow EMTs:

• I assume they are mature enough to understand honesty.
• I assume they are interested in improving their patient care
• I assume they are grown ups and able to respond to a correction without tears and hurty feelers
• I assume that if I screw up, forget something or miss something on a call, they will inform me of the deficiency
• I assume most of all that they are more focused on the patient than the feelings of either one of the patients caregivers

Now, if one of my brothers or sisters (and I have many siblings) were to be in the back of the rig with me, treating a pt and in possession of a valid EMT cert.. I would treat them the same way.

If your feelings are hurt by one of us 'harsh' posters, then your feelings are in for a world of hurt in EMS. Quite frankly, if you were solid in your skills, solid in your self esteem, solid in your perception of your place and abilities within EMS, you wouldn't care what I thought if you knew you were right. Mature people are able to disagree, even argue points and walk away agreeing to disagree.

I have a lot more respect for those in here who have disagreed with me than I do for those who kiss my butt and tell me I'm wonderful. I know those who disagree are being honest and their disagreement is based in the knowledge that I'm a big girl and can face the big, bad, dare I say "harsh" world.

 

[Sasha]

• I assume they are mature enough to understand honesty.
• I assume they are interested in improving their patient care
• I assume they are grown ups and able to respond to a correction without tears and hurty feelers
• I assume that if I screw up, forget something or miss something on a call, they will inform me of the deficiency
• I assume most of all that they are more focused on the patient than the feelings of either one of the patients caregivers

I love the word feelers.

Its so cute!

You as a whole, are cute, Miss BossyCow!

 

[emt19723]

BossyCow, i completely see your point. when the s*** hits the fan out in the field and you have a pt thats getting ready to check out and a partner that is on the brink of shut-down and starts doing things wrong and such, yeah...the heat of battle will make you say/do some pretty harsh stuff. i am guilty of that myself. cuz you need to be able to depend on your partner at a moments notice. and when i was green, i got corrected pretty harshly out in the field when i screwed up.
but after the call was over, every single time i messed up....my partner(s) pulled me to the side, explained why i got yelled at, corrected, whatever the case may have been. and they did it tactfully. i still at times, after 7 years in the field, get my hands smacked by my medics on calls when i mess up. its not that often anymore, but everything still gets done with respect cuz we all consider ourselves brothers and sisters around here. its a "live and let die" kind of thing, and as long as you learned something, no one holds it against you.

and like i said, this is a forum here. i do see some posters getting pretty hard with others on their posts when posters talk about some of their experiences. but this forum here.....this is a place to LEARN. it shouldnt be used to belittle or just totally shoot down someone when they just want to talk about what happened...especially the probies. we all know that EMS is a field that you NEVER stop learning in. like i said....after 7 years, i know for a fact that i dont know everything and I still learn new things, and that im still going to make mistakes.

oh, and HeavyCrow......great post BRO!! couldn't have said that better myself! :beerchug:

 

[Ridryder911]

It is very appearant that most or many never have NEVER have been exposed to the educational process of medicine.

Just a few minute stern words and many become offended or cannot handle the heat of criticism. I would like for them to watch "grand rounds" with medical students. One has not seen what chastising is until you see one. Even though it is done with a precise cutting edge and it is much harsher than ever presented here. Why? Because we are dealing with human lives.. nothing more sacred and precious.

Unfortunately many or most never recognize the responsibility of what EMS really is. That it is the beginning portion of the health care process. That the first care is important as the initial treatment process, the responsibility and accuracy of the assessment, the baseline vital signs, the first few minutes of monitoring the neuro status is essential. Any inaccuracies or failures of recognition can literally mean the difference between life and death.. so being a little harsh on the forum is the least of our problems.

I have seen a mind set that believes everyone and all can work in this profession... well, that's not true. Not everyone can sucessfully be in this career. Many lack the drive or even specific area of interest, knowledge to be successful to provide patient care.

The problems I see here is most of the questions are areas that should had been covered in the class rooms or by simply reading text and journals. Appearant many have not been taught to look and study before asking. This is what education is about, knowing where to locate resources.

Either they were provided a poor education, did not pay attention within the classroom, or fail to realize one has to go beyond the initial learning phase and read more than one textbook.

In comparrison we are much tamer than in real life. Await until a surgeon or ER physician corners you.. learn how to accept criticism, how to defend your actions or ideas properly.

 

[BossyCow]

I think you hit the nail on the head Rid. As educators, we have a focus on correcting behaviors and that may give us a different perspective. Also having seen so many try and fail and having dealt with what happens in the field when you are trying to overcome the combination of really bad training with an attitude of 'Gee Look Ma...I'm a hero' may make us a bit less tolerant.

But I'm not going to change. I figure there are plenty of people around to powder the little heinies and wipe the tears of new EMTs who are discovering for the first time that they chose a difficult line of work. I'm comfortable with the knowledge that a lot of people don't make it in EMS. I have developed a pretty fine tuned sense of who has what it takes to make it in this business and what sort of traits are signs of trouble to come. Sure a few surprise me and overcome early deficits, but they are damn few and far between.

I have always been willing and will continue to help those who want to work on skills. I have spent many hours going over CPR, B/P, vitals, backboarding, how to set up an IV, take a blood sugar with someone who wasn't getting it in class. But I have an extremely low tolerance for whining. Ask for help, put in the work, improve your deficits and I'm behind you all the way. But, "OMG", "poor me", and "hey this is good enough" are guaranteed to set me off everytime.

 

[emt19723]

Rid,
while i can definitely see your point in dealing with human life, theres still one thing about your post that caught my attention.

you said about the med. students and going on their "grand rounds." i dont really see how you can compare med students to EMTs. or to paramedics for that matter. doctors go to college, med school, grad school all taking up to 10-12 years. they SHOULD be chastised by their instructors if they do something wrong by then!
EMTs however (and this is just PA) go through a 140-hour course, and are required 24 hours of con-ed every 3 years. granted a lot of EMTs i know dont stop at 24 hours every term of their certification, but still....there is no comparison there to an MD.

I am all for yanking someones cert. if the same mistakes keep happening. cuz thats just a lawsuit waiting to happen right there. and i dont know of anyone who likes to get sued, nor would i ever wish that on someone. BUT, if a situation comes up, and it is rectified after the first occurance, you dont have to be completely ignorant about it when you correct or advise someone on a mistake.

 

[BossyCow]

I don't think anyone is saying that we should be ruthless. But the definition of ruthless or harsh is pretty subjective. I don't believe any of us mean to be intentionally rude or punitive. I think its how its perceived in the written word that's at odds.

But, addressing the grand rounds analogy, would you be more comfortable with the image of how some charge nurse working her 7th graveyard shift in a row is going to address an EMT who did something she didn't like? How about the family member who 'almost became a nurse 15 years ago' and thinks they know everything. How about the ER physician who wants to know right now why you did or didn't do something he believes you should have done?

None of us here are saying that we shouldn't attempt to be sensitive or to encourage those who are trying to improve themselves. But, I think in all fairness, there's a lot of jumping to the defense of a new EMT's right to remain mediocre.

 

[dadotwins]

Thanx To All !!

Thank you all for your varied thoughts and opinions.I welcomed them all for or against my little thread. It has given me a great amount to think about. I am a good ole boy, I live in a very small community, I depend greatly on all my friends and coworkers in many ways. I hope they can me. I may not be as highly educated as some of you, experience and age seems to make up most of it. I may not even be the caliber of EMT that some of you are. I have had successes and failures, still do. I was raised under what I suppose is becoming a delapidated idea: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My consideration of a " brotherhood" was entirely my own. I was hoping to find like minded people on this.
Bossycow my apologies to you, but I read your thread and this wasn't about you or your thread. I don't think your mean. Maybe opionated. Thats O.K.
For the guy that wanted the $50, If I got and you need it, you can have it. Never metcha, don't care. If I thought you truely needed it. And I could get it to you, I scincerely would.
For the other guy that thought the thread was about him, thank you, but no it wasn't.
My skin is probably thinner than it should be to be in the job I'm in. It may be the very reason I didn't make medic. I'm a pasifist by nature, I would rather to avoid conflict if possible, willing to hold my own otherwise. I've been working in the medical feild scince 1984. I'm just part time with EMS now. I still love it, need to be around it, need to belong. I'm a fair to good EMT. I give my all to my patients, my all may not be enough by some standards. I'm flawed, I know it. Thats who I am. It's what makes me,me. As long as my patients are well cared for, I'm O.K. with that.
This has been my most successful thread, because every post was referring to the original thread. For or against,it didn't matter. Even the internal discussions were about the original thread. This was the point I was going for. No vearing away from the original start because of odd comments made. Thank You all.

 

[Bosco578]

Thank you all for your varied thoughts and opinions.I welcomed them all for or against my little thread. It has given me a great amount to think about. I am a good ole boy, I live in a very small community, I depend greatly on all my friends and coworkers in many ways. I hope they can me. I may not be as highly educated as some of you, experience and age seems to make up most of it. I may not even be the caliber of EMT that some of you are. I have had successes and failures, still do. I was raised under what I suppose is becoming a delapidated idea: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
My consideration of a " brotherhood" was entirely my own. I was hoping to find like minded people on this.
Bossycow my apologies to you, but I read your thread and this wasn't about you or your thread. I don't think your mean. Maybe opionated. Thats O.K.
For the guy that wanted the $50, If I got and you need it, you can have it. Never metcha, don't care. If I thought you truely needed it. And I could get it to you, I scincerely would.
For the other guy that thought the thread was about him, thank you, but no it wasn't.
My skin is probably thinner than it should be to be in the job I'm in. It may be the very reason I didn't make medic. I'm a pasifist by nature, I would rather to avoid conflict if possible, willing to hold my own otherwise. I've been working in the medical feild scince 1984. I'm just part time with EMS now. I still love it, need to be around it, need to belong. I'm a fair to good EMT. I give my all to my patients, my all may not be enough by some standards. I'm flawed, I know it. Thats who I am. It's what makes me,me. As long as my patients are well cared for, I'm O.K. with that.
This has been my most successful thread, because every post was referring to the original thread. For or against,it didn't matter. Even the internal discussions were about the original thread. This was the point I was going for. No vearing away from the original start because of odd comments made. Thank You all.

Well said. For what it's worth, I consider you my "brother". Much respect.

Bosco

 

[AlaskaEMT]

I don't believe we're Brothers & Sisters (whatever that means) but one thing is for sure... in professions like this, when there is an external aggressor, we always find common ground and come together.

 

[emt19723]

I don't believe we're Brothers & Sisters (whatever that means) but one thing is for sure... in professions like this, when there is an external aggressor, we always find common ground and come together.

well....since you mentioned the "external aggressor," i will bring up another point as to why i believe all emergency services is a brotherhood.


Sept. 11th.


i didnt see masses of CPAs, lawyers, wall street brokers....whatever, banding together and help dig out their fellow lawyers or whatever.

i DID see, however, hundreds upon hundreds of FFs, EMTs, police officers, etc... coming together to try and rescue and save people in the rubble. complete strangers trying to save complete strangers. yeah, yeah....i know...thats our job. but every time they did recover the body of an emergency worker, the work stopped and everybody showed respect to their fallen brother. it was their duty as a good American and an emergency worker to come and help in NYC that day. but i would bet money that if you asked 99% of the FFs, EMTs, and police officers why they did what they did after the attacks, they will say "i came to help my fallen brothers!"

had i been able to afford to take off work for that long and go up there to help, that would have been reason #2. reason #1 would have been to do my duty as an American.

if the aftermath of 9/11 isnt enough to make you think twice about emergency services being a brotherhood.......then my thought is, i can only hope one day you change your mind and see what the rest of see.

dadotwins....this was/is a great topic. i could argue this point till i was blue in the face....and apparently, so could some others on the opposition. lol but i can tell you this.....i will go to my grave with this opinion. and whether they like it or not, agree with it or not, i consider everyone that comes here my brothers and sisters as well. even Rid....even though he is obviously my biggest antagonist on this thread. lol