Are Medics Esentially RNs In rigs

systemet said:
Both are non-physician providers with relatively short educational programs performing acts delegated by a physician.
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Actually, I agree. However the typical paramedic holds a certificate, the typical nurse holds an associates degree (and a BSN is becoming more common, and currently I think it's the unofficial minimum for entry into the profession these days).
systemet said:
but tell me there's not some similarity between a paramedic and an ICU or ER nurse. In plenty of European countries EMS is a subspecialty of nursing. It sounds like, in some states, RN's are doing a lot of the flight work.
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Actually I think ICU nurses are very distant from what we do in EMS, I think the typical paramedic, including myself, is very uncomfortable with many of the things going on with patients in an ICU. Multiple drips, vents, wound vacs, chest tubes, IABP, blood products, etc etc. Many of these things fall way outside the normal paramedic's scope of practice, even many CCT paramedics aren't able to transport these things without a nurse present.

As far as flight nurses go, I actually think having a paramedic on the helicopter is silly. There are so many paramedics that become nurses that you would think there would be enough nurses with paramedic experience that they shouldn't bother hiring paramedics. I'm starting to think that paramedics are only on the helicopter because they are a cheap extra pair of hands. I have seen some flight teams when they are on inter-facility flights take an RRT instead of a medic. I would hate to be a flight medic honestly... every flight that goes out goes with a nurse, but not always a paramedic.

The ER, however, is a different story, I think paramedics could do a lot of an ER nurses job without much extra training. Starting IVs, putting in foleys, and giving some of the medications are all currently in paramedic scope, and I don't think it'd be a stretch to replace at least half of the ER nurses with medics. Although I think some states have minimum nurse to patient ratio laws, plus nurses really don't want to lose their jobs to medics who are often $20,000/yr cheaper.
systemet said:
Paramedic: 2-3 years if you include EMT.
RN: 3-4 years
M.D. (FM) : 8-10 years.
M.D. (EM) : 10 - 12 years
M.D. ( random obscure specialty + dual boarded + journeyman plumber) 57.6 years.

And so forth...

Obviously educational time varies with location, but as much as both would probably like to deny it, they're closer to one another than either is to being a physician.
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Completely agree, if we just want to count straight educational time. In fact an AAS in Paramedicine and an ADN are very similar to each other, I think the ADN just has pathophysiology, human growth and development, and nutrition that separates it from most paramedic degrees. But how many Paramedics have an AAS vs how many nurses have an ADN? How many paramedics have bachelors degrees in their field?

But to answer the OP, no. Paramedics are not like nurses in an ambulance. In spite of how similar ER nurses' daily routine looks like a paramedic's, the field of nursing is worlds different than paramedicine. One is not better than the other, some nurses are not suited to being in emergent situations, just like paramedics are not suited for the long-term, holistic care of patients.

As a side note, why do we constantly have to measure penises with nurses? Are we just that insecure with ourselves? See I personally think I'm better than nurses because I don't have the option of working in a SNF. :lol:
 
Just a side note. The BSN has essentially become the minimum level of education for New grads at many hospitals, especially magnet/academic hospitals. Having just gone through the new grad HR process I was told that they will go through and interview every BSN applicant before moving on to ADNs (New grads). ADNs with experience still have a chance but are not eligible for any type of charge nurse or management role and must get their BSN within X number of years.

by 2015 the BSN is *supposed* to be the minimum entry for RN

Also, ICU RNs typically have 2 patients for 12 hour shifts and step down or med/surg can have anywhere from 4-8 patients. But they do so in a controlled environment with support staff as opposed to the field
 
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Around here 2020 is the date for all RN's to be BSN. At least in major hospitals.
 
In a world where college degrees, specifically bachelors, are becoming the norm for entry level jobs, its not like this is groundbreaking or even a challenge for people to obtain. We are at a time where more people are going to college and completing it. As such it would be expected that a BSN becomes a requirement. That being said, it becomes difficult for those already in the workplace to compete.

What is really of concern/interest is why pre-hospital care is so far behind.
 
If it was not for the fact the OP was new to health care, I would vote the title of this thread "troll level 1000" achievement unlocked.
 
I work in the Netherlands. Here there is a RN on every ambulance. To be an ambulance nurse you first have to build up some clinical experience in a hospital for a few years and specialize in ICU, trauma, CCU or anesthesia. Lately some services also accept military nurses with at least 6 years experience.
I've seen that every specialism brings certain knowledge and experience with it, but everybody has to change their mindset to work in the ems field. Everybody needs an additional 1 year study to be allowed to work independently.
Here in the Netherlands they like to think that because they are RN and not paramedics they've got more experience and knowledge. I must say I have seen paramedics at work in other countries and I have come to the conclusion that you've got good paramedics and bad ones, but there are also good RN’s and bad ones on the ambulances here. It doesn't make any difference what your diplomas are saying. It is the way that you use your knowledge and skills to give the best care that you can.
 
boerbull said:
It doesn't make any difference what your diplomas are saying. It is the way that you use your knowledge and skills to give the best care that you can.
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That is a good point. There are some amazing Paramedics I have met over the years with a vast amount of knowledge who are excellent providers. Most also took self initiative and acquired an undergraduate degree even though it was not required. Others simply gained the knowledge through self study and experience.

In the USA its a mixed bag, whats holding us back professionally is the minimum standard is set to low in various ways.
The minimum standard for RN has raised the bar and Paramedicine must do the same

PS:Over here in Denmark they have had Paramedics (Paramediciner) for only a few years. It is a new concept. Does the Netherlands also staff ambulances with Doctors?
 
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No doctors on the ambulance. What we do have is a number of Mobile Medical teams. These are teams of a anesthetist and a nurse that provides additional skills for the ambulance crews. What we also have is a after hours GP service that is also mobile. If we think that it's not necessarily for a patient to be transported we can ask the GP service to come past and treat a patient at home. During hours we can contact there own family doctor to hand over the patient care.
I must say that this is a system that works here in the Netherlands but I don't think it would work in bigger countries.
 
systemet said:
M.D. ( random obscure specialty + dual boarded + journeyman plumber) 57.6 years.
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Actually, I don't know about the journeyman plumber, but the dual specialty of anesthesia and general surgery is only 10 more years after med school, for a total of 18-20.

With my already near 20 years of school, I see it as 1/2 way done :)
 
sir.shocksalot said:
As a side note, why do we constantly have to measure penises with nurses? Are we just that insecure with ourselves?
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Coincidentally, Chase is one of the few nurses that we can actually measure penises with.... :ph34r:
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JPINFV said:
Family medicine: 3 year residency.
Emergency medicine 3-4 years depending on the program (heard more than once it being described as a 3.5 year residency and, alternatively, the 4th year being the "$200,000 mistake").
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Here it's 2 and 5 years respectively. I didn't realise that it was different in the US.
 
schulz said:
If it was not for the fact the OP was new to health care, I would vote the title of this thread "troll level 1000" achievement unlocked.
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Should've never created this thread.
 
drose said:
Should've never created this thread.
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It is not a bad question, for people new to the healthcare field the two roles appear to be very similar. It is the "A Medic is a (RN/MD/God) in the back of an ambulance" mentality that tends to get a lot of people fired up. I know that was not the intention of your post but I think that is how many people took it. But asking about the difference between the two is totally understandable.
 
drose said:
Should've never created this thread.
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I'll agree with chase, I don't think it's a bad question, it just tends to get people fired up. I think dealing with just ER nurses and SNF nurses for the most part really makes us look at nursing in a very one dimensional way. We watch SNF nurses really make a mess of things and then we take the pt to the ER and watch as the nurse has to go run off to ask the physician if they can give Zofran. I think a lot of providers forget that there is far more to nursing than just what we see on a daily basis.

During paramedic school one of my favorite clinicals was in the ICU, we had two patients and I don't think we ever stopped running around. Also watching this nurse really analyze what is going on with the patient with not just a physical exam, but interpreting labs, imaging studies, etc and making judgement calls from that was really impressive and eye-opening. We only talked to a doc twice and once was because the patient appeared to be having a stroke.

Now if we can just get nurses to spend some time with us so that they don't see us as just ambulance drivers... Of course that would be the day of either the raisin rodeo or the drunk deliveries.
 
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Chase said:
It is not a bad question, for people new to the healthcare field the two roles appear to be very similar. It is the "A Medic is a (RN/MD/God) in the back of an ambulance" mentality that tends to get a lot of people fired up. I know that was not the intention of your post but I think that is how many people took it. But asking about the difference between the two is totally understandable.
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Chase said:
Just graduated today actually :D
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Congratulations! I just noticed the change in your signature as well. Good work!
 
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