And the jury is back

PotatoMedic

PotatoMedic

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Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. These guys talked their way into being found guilty.

I hope this means stricter oversight of EMS and Standards.
 
What an unfortunate and interesting case. Nothing like deploying a perfect storm of callous, overly aggressive, poorly trained, and poorly disciplined public safety "professionals" to protect their city from an unarmed 140# young man from dancing as he walked home.

At least someone involved in the homicide of this kid is being held responsible for their role in it. It was apparent from early on that the cops wouldn't be.
 
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Carlos Danger said:
What an unfortunate and interesting case. Nothing like deploying a perfect storm of callous, overly aggressive, poorly trained, and poorly disciplined public safety "professionals" to protect their city from an unarmed 140# young man from dancing as he walked home.

At least someone involved in the homicide of this kid is being held responsible for their role in it. It was apparent from early on that the cops wouldn't be.
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The cops didn’t inject him with 500 mgs of Ketamine…
 
CCCSD said:
The cops didn’t inject him with 500 mgs of Ketamine…
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No they did not, and that was a completely inappropriate action for which the paramedics deserve to be punished.

However, the ketamine administration never would have happened had the cops not unnecessarily escalated an interaction with a citizen who was harming no one and breaking no laws. It also likely wouldn't have happened had the cops not lied to the paramedics in describing a state of agitated delirium, when in reality what was going on looked nothing at all like agitated delirium. The body cam video makes it pretty clear that Mclain's "resisting" was really just an attempt to position himself so that he could breathe better and not aspirate his own vomit. Turns out, that isn't so easy to do when you've been choked out and your hands are cuffed behind your back and someone much larger and stronger than you is applying force to your torso.

"He's SOOO STRONG!!! He almost did a pushup with three of us on his back!!!"

"He tried to get my gun!!"

"He wasn't doing anything criminal, he was just acting crazy!!"

What a bunch of goons. Everyone on that scene looked like a bunch of lobotomized monkeys trying to have their way with the proverbial football.
 
Carlos Danger said:
No they did not, and that was a completely inappropriate action for which the paramedics deserve to be punished.

However, the ketamine administration never would have happened had the cops not unnecessarily escalated an interaction with a citizen who was harming no one and breaking no laws. It also likely wouldn't have happened had the cops not lied to the paramedics in describing a state of agitated delirium, when in reality what was going on looked nothing at all like agitated delirium. The body cam video makes it pretty clear that Mclain's "resisting" was really just an attempt to position himself so that he could breathe better and not aspirate his own vomit. Turns out, that isn't so easy to do when you've been choked out and your hands are cuffed behind your back and someone much larger and stronger than you is applying force to your torso.

"He's SOOO STRONG!!! He almost did a pushup with three of us on his back!!!"

"He tried to get my gun!!"

"He wasn't doing anything criminal, he was just acting crazy!!"

What a bunch of goons. Everyone on that scene looked like a bunch of lobotomized monkeys trying to have their way with the proverbial football.
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This is what bothers me the most about this case. Placing all the blame on the medics ignores the decades of research into group dynamics, groupthink, the milgrim study, and the bystander effect, among other things.

We can all sit here and say that we'd be the voice of reason showing up on this scene, but sociology and group psychology have proven this is much more difficult than we pretend it to be.
 
It STILL goes back to the original issue: Paramedics killed a human through utter negligence.

If you haven’t ever worked as a Police, please don’t second guess them all. If you hate the thought of Police being present at MH cases, please don’t call for them. If they are there, release them so you can handle the situation yourself.
 
CCCSD said:
It STILL goes back to the original issue: Paramedics killed a human through utter negligence.

If you haven’t ever worked as a Police, please don’t second guess them all. If you hate the thought of Police being present at MH cases, please don’t call for them. If they are there, release them so you can handle the situation yourself.
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I think with the massive amounts of evidence and body camera footage of many different incidents, it is ok to second guess…
 
CCCSD said:
It STILL goes back to the original issue: Paramedics killed a human through utter negligence.

If you haven’t ever worked as a Police, please don’t second guess them all. If you hate the thought of Police being present at MH cases, please don’t call for them. If they are there, release them so you can handle the situation yourself.
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1. I have worked as a police officer
2. You're missing the point - showing up to a scene that is already ****ed up and thinking you'll be the lone voice of de-escalation in a volatile scene with a bunch of type A people is MUCH harder than you're giving credit for.
 
So what should rank-and-file medics take away from this?
 
mgr22 said:
So what should rank-and-file medics take away from this?
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That it's your responsibility to know the drugs you give and the proper dosages. That you should take a second to take in the entire scene before acting, and if any single part of you says "something isn't right here", investigate it.

Finally, don't be afraid to stand up and speak out. I'm in the twilight of my career, and now a captain, and am perfectly comfortable walking into a room where everything is ****ed up and say "wow, stop, we need to reset", but this is not something that comes naturally to many (nor to me earlier in my career), especially in our new generation coming up.
 
FiremanMike said:
1. I have worked as a police officer
2. You're missing the point - showing up to a scene that is already ****ed up and thinking you'll be the lone voice of de-escalation in a volatile scene with a bunch of type A people is MUCH harder than you're giving credit for.
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I’ve been doing the cop gig for over 35 years and counting. I’ve been an EMT/Paramedic for over 40 years. I’ve been a PCF for 30 years.
I think I have a leg to stand on…
 
CCCSD said:
I’ve been doing the cop gig for over 35 years and counting. I’ve been an EMT/Paramedic for over 40 years. I’ve been a PCF for 30 years.
I think I have a leg to stand on…
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It’s not a competition. You attempted to minimize anyone’s opinion who hasn’t pushed a cruiser. I merely pointed out that I have.
 
mgr22 said:
So what should rank-and-file medics take away from this?
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For starters, have some self awareness of the lane in which you operate...not just a cynical wise crack....paramedics can't have LE duties delegated to them. Anecdotal for sure, but I've known 2 or 3 medics that derive some weird validation by cops that are deferential to them and welcome them into their inner circle. Have no idea what the dynamics were here, but that phenomenon exists and it's pretty crazy. Those types need to be given a wide berth ( by the rank and file) lest they drag the unsuspecting into problems IMHO.
 
DesertMedic66 said:
I think with the massive amounts of evidence and body camera footage of many different incidents, it is ok to second guess…
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Without the knowledge, background and training you're still stating it's okay to second guess?
 
ffemt8978 said:
Without the knowledge, background and training you're still stating it's okay to second guess?
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In a lot of circumstances yes. Like when police do stupid things such as: serve a no knock search warrant on the wrong house or PIT a vehicle they are attempting to pull over despite the driver following the rules exactly per the DMV on what to do when pulled over or shooting at the completely wrong vehicle for no reason when that vehicle doesn’t match the description of the vehicle they are looking for.
 
DesertMedic66 said:
In a lot of circumstances yes. Like when police do stupid things such as: serve a no knock search warrant on the wrong house or PIT a vehicle they are attempting to pull over despite the driver following the rules exactly per the DMV on what to do when pulled over or shooting at the completely wrong vehicle for no reason when that vehicle doesn’t match the description of the vehicle they are looking for.
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Like when EMS blow off sick patients, drive like idiots, carry firearms etc?
 
coolidge said:
What was the cause of death?
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One was giving a 150lb patient a 750lb patient dose of Ketamine, a second was someone being a busy-body, and the third cause of death was a bunch of supposed professionals neglecting their ward.
 
CCCSD said:
Like when EMS blow off sick patients, drive like idiots, carry firearms etc?
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Oh 100%. Some people in every profession do things that are easily second guessable. EMS is not immune, RNs are not immune, LEOs are not immune, firefighters are not immune.
 
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