ALL RIGHT, once and for all: Who owns the scene?

mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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PLEASE DO NOT POST A REPLY UNTIL/UNLESS YOU HAVE ACTUALLY READ OR BEEN TOLD THE PERTINENT REGULATIONS BY A REAL AUTHORITY. * Answer one, two or all. Email if yo don't want to do it here and I'll post the outcome.

EMS, Fire and LE are on scene at each of the following incidents. Who is in charge of each at the initial approach, after the fire (if any) is out, after there are no more people to rescue, and if the scene becomes a hazard to emergency workers:

1. Gunshot in a house, shooter not in custody.
2. House fire.
3. Multiple vehicle accident blocking I-80, multiple victims, one car on fire, fuel down in road.


*No, your co-workers, mother, nor Uncle Morty count unless they are cops or lawyers.
 
Does our EMS Instructor Count? We learned about this in EMT class and had a cop in our class to verify at least for our area?
 
1. Police
2. Fire
3. Fire

Those are common sense. You need to pick ones that are a little out of the ordinary!
 
Who owns the scene?

I do!

chucknorrisvc1.jpg
 
Yeah, EMT instructor with a cop counts.

Unless the cop was Uncle Morty.
 
Our "first responder" sent a message last night.

the response was:
LE
Fire
Fire

I mentioned the last one had traffic aspects on Interstate 80 (SF to NYC), he noted that but did not change his answer, IAW his local district's interagency plan.
 
In my area, #3 would be the Emergency Response Team which consists of a Hazmat team that is, but isn't, part of the fire department. They are a sort of authority in their own sanctioned by the fire department/Emergency Services board but only respond to chemical type emergencies and Mass casualty type stuff
 
1. Gunshot in a house, shooter not in custody.
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This one is definitely Law Enforcement. May not even have EMS dispatched at that point. We would not have EMS dispatched unless it was a police stand off with law enforcement on scene and the eminent possibility that either a cop or other victim would be needing us. Around here, gunshot in a house might just mean that Bubba and BillyBob were doing some target practice.

2. House fire.
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Okay.. du-uh.... the cops????

3. Multiple vehicle accident blocking I-80, multiple victims, one car on fire, fuel down in road.
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This one actually gets a bit more complicated. With the accident on an interstate, this would probably, legally be the state patrol's scene. Now, within that framework, fire would have control of decisions made on the car fire, and EMS would be in control of Pt care. Fuel in the road would be a HazMat which in our district is managed by State Patrol.

Law Enforcement would be in charge of who enters and leaves the scene and when. With the fuel being flammable and the presence of actual fire.. they would certainly be listening to the FD regarding scene safety. Without more information about the proximity of the victims to the flames and fuel, EMS would also most likely defer to the FD regarding the ability to safely treat those patients. Personally, I don't care how good bunker gear is on paper. I'm not going to volunteer to conduct personal field trials on it. I would want some assurance on my safety before jumping in to help someone else.
 
mycrofft said:
PLEASE DO NOT POST A REPLY UNTIL/UNLESS YOU HAVE ACTUALLY READ OR BEEN TOLD THE PERTINENT REGULATIONS BY A REAL AUTHORITY. * Answer one, two or all. Email if yo don't want to do it here and I'll post the outcome.
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*No, your co-workers, mother, nor Uncle Morty count unless they are cops or lawyers.
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Cops and lawyers would not be the only authority. Most lawyers don't respond to emergencies and would have no idea. I have several friedns who are lawyers and they would ask me if you asked them. Fire and EMS officials are experts on this topic. Emergency management training covers this exactly and some of us have it.


EMS, Fire and LE are on scene at each of the following incidents. Who is in charge of each at the initial approach, after the fire (if any) is out, after there are no more people to rescue, and if the scene becomes a hazard to emergency workers:

1. Gunshot in a house, shooter not in custody.
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EMS does not enter an unsafe scene. Firefighters would not be called to this. Only choice left are cops. I don't need to seek an authority for this. Every EMT and medic is told not to enter an unsafe scene.

2. House fire.
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How would cops are ems be in charge of this? Obviously only the fire dept could be in charge. I did not need to speak to a cop or lawyer to know that.

3. Multiple vehicle accident blocking I-80, multiple victims, one car on fire, fuel down in road.
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Fire department. The scene is not safe. The fire dept. is in charge until the fire is out and the fuel is not going to light up. Than when treating patients, EMS is in charge.
 
Firecoins, I was not precise in my subject line. Apologies.

I'm looking for the written legal rules. The ones the judge will go to when you and the county mounty are both sporting black eyes, he's at the plaintiff's table and you are at the defendant's. The ones which motivate booknosed deskriders destined to be the bosses of us all, eventually.

Let me say it too. Despite any written reg, FD is in charge when it is dangerous and on fire unless LE says they aren't, then LE can put out the fire. LE has the crime scene unless FD declares it a hazmat or about to blow up, then FD can conduct arrests and locate witnesses while LE waits at the ECP. EMS doesn't control spit at a fire or dangerous scene until the big boys call EMS in.

If you don't believe it, go give a peace officer an order (not a request, an order) at any scene and see how quickly he snaps-to.

Each scene needs cooperation and flexibility between agencies, no one can order around the rest except LE, and they shouldn't. Most of the time it works.

Please keep them coming in, but as Professor Kingsfield would say "WHAT is the law, the law!?".;)


kingsfield.jpg
 
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1) LEOs, everyone else is still staging since the scene is not safe. Tactical EMS (part of the PD) can bring the pt out to our truck if they want but PD is in control.

2) Obviously the FD, scene is not safe. IF EMS is aprt of the FD then trained FF/EMTs might be able to go in, but then they'd be FD so FD!

3) FD until Fire is clear or same situation as 2 with FF/EMTs. Then EMS until EMS clears. Then PD. EMS always controls the accident scene until they turn it over to PD unless the scene is not safe (shooter at the scene?) in which case EMS would be staged so not even on the scene yet to control it.
 
mycrofft said:
I'm looking for the written legal rules. The ones the judge will go to when you and the county mounty are both sporting black eyes, he's at the plaintiff's table and you are at the defendant's. The ones which motivate booknosed deskriders destined to be the bosses of us all, eventually.
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your written protocols are the rules/laws. I have NYS protocols, local protocols and FEMA ICS. I can hand them to my lawyer.
 
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Actually, the M.E. is above all, as they usually have more authority than the Governor.

It all goes upon the incidence. Crime Scene, safety and hazards, then Health and Public Safety.

R/r 911
 
Checked our big black book (actually just got bored on downtime and was having a protocol dispute with my partner that I knew I was right on and happened to stumble across this)

1. LE -- their scene until it comes to patient care.
2. FD
3. FD
 
Our ICS states if its happening on a highway, the state patrol is in charge.
 
Who has the guns and handcuffs? I think we all know who is really in charge. You might contest something and end up winning later in court. But, the bottom line, if the cops don't want you doing something, you aren't doing it.
 
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This discussion always ruffles feathers. As a police officer and a paramedic I can tell you both schools told me "You are in charge". The part we didn't address was "when?".

Priorities of the different services are different and are not always on the same path to the common goal (Service and protection).

A police officer will usually have ultimate responsibility of a roadway, not the patient. The officer is worried about tons of things related to the safety of everyone involved. I can assure you I am much more worried about being struck by a rubber-necker as they pass the accident scene than being shot on duty.

I have been in EMS for 18 years and spent 14 of that as an LEO as well. I have never had to deal with the pi$$ing match on the side of the road wearing either uniform.

It may be that I show tons of respect to the others I work around or maybe I have just been blessed to be surrounded by professionals. Either way I would refuse to partake in a gripe session on the side of the road (where emotions flare) and handle it upon cool reflection.

There have been recent stories of FF being arrested on scenes. That cant' end good no matter who was right.
 
And thank goodness most are like DT4EMS and don’t let the power corrupt them.

With all these ems nuts we got running around with all their ems gizmos hanging off, can you imagine what they would do with a little power? I don't even want to think about it.
 
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Guardian said:
Who has the guns and handcuffs? I think we all know who is really in charge. You might contest something and end up winning later in court. But, the bottom line, if the cops don't want you doing something, you aren't doing it.
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Right so when EMS wins in court, the police dept. looks bad and the officer gets suspended if not fired. Everyone wins.:rolleyes:
 
Guardian said:
And thank goodness most are like DT4EMS and don’t let the power corrupt them.

With all these ems nuts we got running around with all their ems gizmos hanging off, can you imagine what they would do with a little power? I don't even want to think about it.
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What was the saying............ "Absolute power corrupts absolutely?"

When I was teaching EMS I would always discuss this problem with students. I still think one of the areas we are lacking in EMS education is HOW TO HANDLE EACH OTHER not just the patient(s).

Station life, relationship strains, agency interactions etc.
 
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