ALL RIGHT, once and for all: Who owns the scene?

I OWN the scene, 'expletive that means female dog".

Actually, in Ventura County, CA, our protocols from county EMSA state that the agency having "primary investigative authority over the area in which the scene is present has authority over scene control" This means the primary law enforcement agency for the area. In ventura county we have a good relationship with the law and EMS. I however work in LA county where I get to do all of the Law's grunt work like take their prisoners they don't want to deal with off the scene and too the pysch ER.
 
Guardian said:
Who has the guns and handcuffs? I think we all know who is really in charge. You might contest something and end up winning later in court. But, the bottom line, if the cops don't want you doing something, you aren't doing it.
Click to expand...

And I know a lot of FF's that will spray you with 150psi straight stream long before the cop decides to pull out his gun or cuffs. :P

Your post does bring up a valid point though, in that there is a time and a place to argue something. Along side the road at the scene IS NOT IT! If there is an issue on scene, bring it up to your chain of command and let the big dogs fight it out later...that's what they get paid for.

We responded to an accident several years ago on a two lane county road. We were the first agency to arrive on scene, even though we had the farthest to go. We had three different departments, along with law and a helicopter arrive on scene after us. Law arrived and shut down the road way to set up the LZ, but wouldn't let the fire truck with extrication equipment through to the scene. The officer threatened to arrest the fire truck driver if he attempted to drive by to get to the scene. Meanwhile, we're telling our dispatch center to expidite extrication equipment and the driver gets back on the radio and tells us why he is delayed. Our OIC hears this, and walks over to the sgt. on scene and basically tells him that our equipment needs to get through or the patient would die and it would be his agencies fault. Our truck arrived a minute later. Later that week, the various powers that be held a meeting about this, and the law enforcement agencies received a training memo about not stopping needed emergency equipment.
 
ffemt8978 said:
Later that week, the various powers that be held a meeting about this, and the law enforcement agencies received a training memo about not stopping needed emergency equipment.
Click to expand...

That is exactly my point! Great post Bruddah!!

Kip
 
ffemt8978 said:
Your post does bring up a valid point though, in that there is a time and a place to argue something. Along side the road at the scene IS NOT IT! If there is an issue on scene, bring it up to your chain of command and let the big dogs fight it out later...that's what they get paid for.

.
Click to expand...

Yeah. That has to happen on occassion.
 
Never good............

Well............. here is another view......... which is what I pointed out earlier............

source:
http://www.emsdailynews.com/?p=2564

“We had an Albuquerque Ambulance employee get in the way of an officer trying to do her job,” Albuquerque Police Department Officer Nadine Hamby said.

Instead of rendering aide, the ambulance employee, Christine Stump, and the police officer got into a disagreement that landed Stump in handcuffs, according to the criminal complaint.

Stump is now charged with battery against a police officer.

“My understanding is that she pushed her out of the way,” Hamby said.

The officer told Stump that the patient was acting aggressively, so the officer attempted to restrain her. That’s when Stump allegedly grabbed the officer and told her to “let go of my patient,” according to the criminal complaint.

READ THE REST OF THE STORY AT THE SOURCE..................................................
http://www.emsdailynews.com/?p=2564
 
Citations? Laws?

Kingsfield is impatient, and he's been dead twenty years.
OK, so the consensus is that we're all professionals and we work together on the scene and we all trust our SOP's are IAW applicable law.
 
In our district, #1 No brainer-We would be asked to stage back until the scene was safe.
#2 - Structure fire - Fire and Hazmat - Police & EMS cannot enter until they are told it is safe!
#3 - Multilple mva with gasoline leak - Again 1st in would be Fire dept and Hazmat. Untill scene safe, which would involve LE doing traffic control after fire is out and kitty litter put on gasoline spill, once all is safe, we go in. It's the first thing we learn.
 
I did a drill at a local air force base with a live runway. The runway we were on was closed, but planes were taken off and landing on the other ones. The base was responsible for escorting people to scene and staging area. Fire was in charge of scene and transport of PT's to staging area, staging area was kind of charlie foxtrot, I don't know about the scene, I never saw it. PT's were triaged at scene by fire then brought to the staging triage and re-triaged and then "transported"[staged for awile longer basically until the drill was done for a real transport later because a local hospital wanted to participate.] Triage at the staging area was controlled by 2 senior medics that are assigned to that base so they are would be there anyway. Only older medics post at that base since it is slow and a sweet gig. There was a central command post for "easier communication." This drill was kind of a cluster but a good experience to see how planned MCI's don't go according to plan.
 
As a general rule I go with whom ever is whining about it the most. If you really want control of the scene, fine, just don't get in my way.

That being said, I was always taught that when there was active patient care going on on a scene EMS was in charge. Now, in reality, I've never had that work.

I remember an incident when I was a brand new basic. We had a roll over in deep snow with one patient entrapped. I was the only one on scene agile enough to climb into the vehicle and stabilize c-spine, so I got sent into the car. Once I got in, I wasn't getting out until Fire finished chopping up the car. At several points during the extrication I needed something done and do you think fire listened to me? Ha!

Even when I was a FF/Medic, well trained in extrication I could never get the extrication team to stop breaking stuff long enough to listen to medical. Where I volunteered EMS was the :censored: child, and the management enforced that attitude.
 
Well, In washington State, Fire is in charge of all emergency scenes except crime scenes. So:
#1. LE
#2. FD
#3. FD

I know state patrol gets really angry when they hear it, but yes, fire is charge of a traffic scene. The only exception would be if the traffic scene was also a crime scene, eg. an MVA caused by a shooting, an accident followiong a police chase, etc. However, in this case fire would still be in charge of thigs like scene saftey. They just share contol of the immidete accident site with LE.
 
EeyoreEMT said:
In our district, #1 No brainer-We would be asked to stage back until the scene was safe.
#2 - Structure fire - Fire and Hazmat - Police & EMS cannot enter until they are told it is safe!
#3 - Multilple mva with gasoline leak - Again 1st in would be Fire dept and Hazmat. Untill scene safe, which would involve LE doing traffic control after fire is out and kitty litter put on gasoline spill, once all is safe, we go in. It's the first thing we learn.
Click to expand...


So when are the Medical Professionals allowed on scene, or to be in charge?
 
I would say that EM could be dispatched and be in charge of scenario #3 due to the fact there are multiple agencies involved, possibility of MCI, active fire, and traffic control issues. Add in fuel is considered a hazardous material requiring proper removal and cleanup and I think EM could most definately take control of the scene. This is what ICS and a unified command are all about. Now also, given the fact that it is on a state interstate, the trooper/statie is going to control the scene, but most are content to do whatever it takes to open their highway as quickly as they can.

firecoins said:
Cops and lawyers would not be the only authority. Most lawyers don't respond to emergencies and would have no idea. I have several friedns who are lawyers and they would ask me if you asked them. Fire and EMS officials are experts on this topic. Emergency management training covers this exactly and some of us have it.


EMS, Fire and LE are on scene at each of the following incidents. Who is in charge of each at the initial approach, after the fire (if any) is out, after there are no more people to rescue, and if the scene becomes a hazard to emergency workers:

EMS does not enter an unsafe scene. Firefighters would not be called to this. Only choice left are cops. I don't need to seek an authority for this. Every EMT and medic is told not to enter an unsafe scene.

How would cops are ems be in charge of this? Obviously only the fire dept could be in charge. I did not need to speak to a cop or lawyer to know that.

Fire department. The scene is not safe. The fire dept. is in charge until the fire is out and the fuel is not going to light up. Than when treating patients, EMS is in charge.
Click to expand...
 
lightsandsirens5 said:
Well, In washington State, Fire is in charge of all emergency scenes except crime scenes. So:
#1. LE
#2. FD
#3. FD

I know state patrol gets really angry when they hear it, but yes, fire is charge of a traffic scene. The only exception would be if the traffic scene was also a crime scene, eg. an MVA caused by a shooting, an accident followiong a police chase, etc. However, in this case fire would still be in charge of thigs like scene saftey. They just share contol of the immidete accident site with LE.
Click to expand...

Nope, in washington state if it happens on a state highway the troopers are in charge. They can open a highway and send cars whizzing past your behind if they think they should. Doesn't matter if fire is involved or not. They usually listen to the fd but they don't have to.
 
BossyCow said:
Nope, in washington state if it happens on a state highway the troopers are in charge. They can open a highway and send cars whizzing past your behind if they think they should. Doesn't matter if fire is involved or not. They usually listen to the fd but they don't have to.
Click to expand...

Really? Well...my chief has been misinformed. (AND SO HAVE I!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
But good thing I'm just a FF/EMT.


I'll let him and the trooper fight it out............:P
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top