Accelerated EMT – B Program in December (14 Days)

[mikeward]

Wow, every time Tom announces a course he gets grief from those who think an accelerated EMT-Basic (8 hours a day, 5 days a week) is inappropriate, impossible or immoral.

I have absolutely NO ties to Tom's program, except to refer people to his program that need EMT-Basic RIGHT NOW.

EMT-Basic training is evaluated at a sophmore college level of comprehension difficulty (14th grade), based on the medical terms used.

If I remove the terminology, the 1984-era EMT-Basic falls into the 10th grade of comprehension.

For comparison, Firefighter I and II are around the 7th grade of comprehension.

Career fire departments, municipal/federal government, military and private entities teach 8 hour/day EMT courses all the time.

Back in the day (1982-1984) I ran the EMT-Basic program for a large county fire department. Delivered 6 EMT-Basic classes to rookies and 4 EMT-Basics to in-service firefighters each year. 8 hours a day, five days a week.

A secret in certification training is that those that teach a lot of courses have a significantly higher student success rate that those that teach one course every two years.

A not-so-secret reality in EMT training is that most instructors have not benefitted from additional education or training to become effective as medical or technical instructors.

These instructors are dedicated, often donate their time to teach, and deeply care about EMS. But neither the state agency nor the sponsoring organization has the time or resources to help dedicated instructors improve their effectiveness as EMT instructors.

Those teaching "accelerated" EMT courses often have the resources and infrastructure to support instructors and improve student performances.

"crazycajun" -
I started as a volunteer EMT (1971), went full time four years later.
State EMT instructor in 1977
Became a Virginia Cardiac-EMT in 1978 and paramedic in 1982.

My experience is similar to yours. Just because I learned it this way does not mean everyone else needs to as well.

The military does not have that much time to go from raw recruit to field medic. Military basic training includes self and buddy care, including starting IVs and handling tourniquets.

From my perspective, following the physician education model, we can go from "zero" to Scope of Practice Paramedic without stopping at the EMT level ... and do it in a 8 hour a day/5 day a week format.

Mike

 

[Martyn]

EMT-Basic training is evaluated at a sophmore college level of comprehension difficulty (14th grade), based on the medical terms used.

If I remove the terminology, the 1984-era EMT-Basic falls into the 10th grade of comprehension.

For comparison, Firefighter I and II are around the 7th grade of comprehension.

OK, changing the subject and at the risk of hijacking this thread, I rest my case your honor. Why send 7th graders out to a medical emergency when there are better educated 14th graders? :rofl:

 

[mikeward]

OK, changing the subject and at the risk of hijacking this thread, I rest my case your honor. Why send 7th graders out to a medical emergency when there are better educated 14th graders? :rofl:

Because a 4th grader can operate an AED.

 

[JPINFV]

OK, changing the subject and at the risk of hijacking this thread, I rest my case your honor. Why send 7th graders out to a medical emergency when there are better educated 14th graders? :rofl:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIkEf2Wu9B4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[JPINFV]

Hello Mr. Fossil Medic. It's always nice when one of the more well known people in EMS wonder through here.

Wow, every time Tom announces a course he gets grief from those who think an accelerated EMT-Basic (8 hours a day, 5 days a week) is inappropriate, impossible or immoral.

Would you say that the current EMS standards meet the current educational (both foundational and applied education) demands placed upon providers, both in an operational context and the sense of a trade attempting to become a profession?

If not, do you feel that EMS educators and educational programs have a duty to surpass the minimum requirements and, at a minimum, prepare students to meet the operational demands placed on EMS providers (regardless the level)?

Again, if no to the first question, do you feel that "accelerated" programs provide enough time to attempt to surpass the minimum requirements, or are they essentially limited to teaching to the test?

From my perspective, following the physician education model, we can go from "zero" to Scope of Practice Paramedic without stopping at the EMT level ... and do it in a 8 hour a day/5 day a week format.

Mike

I think there's a very important difference between EMS programs and medical school. Accelerated medical school is 3 years, limits students to primary care (through agreement when entering the program), and basically removes all vacation time during that 3 year period (including Christmas and Summer breaks). It's also found in only a handful of schools. Similarly, while there are often statutory hour requirements (4000 hours in California), no program that I've seen discusses how many hours they provide because their goal is to produce competitive physicians. It's 4 years. If it's 4000, 5000, or somewhere in between, that's how long it is.

Granted, another difference is the factor of graduate medical education (residency) has in pushing (undergraduate) medical school standards. Where, by and large, EMS training program grades, evaluations, and NREMT/state exam scores don't matter, residency programs will look at those when deciding who to rank for their program. As such, there's a market incentive for medical schools to produce competitive students. If students from bare minimum EMS education programs found the job market extra hard because of the school they graduated from, then there would be a direct incentive for students to not go there.

 

[mikeward]

We need to separate EMT from Paramedic for this part of the discussion.

EMT, even under the new Educational Standards, remains a technical skill set under a pretty narrow scope of practice.

Some states require an "instructor-training" program that often covers the state requirements to run an EMT class and an overview/review of the publisher or state provided instructor manual.

Maybe a qualifying knowledge test / skill demonstration.

That is why the publishers spend so much time working on the instructor package for EMT (and Firefighter I/II). EMT is a practitioner teaching skills and knowledge. There are no national minimum academic requirements for EMT instructors

"Duty" is a nice term, but it is not appropriate to expect a training program or certification process to meet all of the "operational needs" of a particular vocation.

Did your EMT-Basic class include certification in operating an emergency vehicle?

PS - I taught EMT at a rural high school for a couple of years

 

[crazycajun]

Wow, every time Tom announces a course he gets grief from those who think an accelerated EMT-Basic (8 hours a day, 5 days a week) is inappropriate, impossible or immoral.

I have absolutely NO ties to Tom's program, except to refer people to his program that need EMT-Basic RIGHT NOW.

EMT-Basic training is evaluated at a sophmore college level of comprehension difficulty (14th grade), based on the medical terms used.

If I remove the terminology, the 1984-era EMT-Basic falls into the 10th grade of comprehension.

For comparison, Firefighter I and II are around the 7th grade of comprehension.

Career fire departments, municipal/federal government, military and private entities teach 8 hour/day EMT courses all the time.

Back in the day (1982-1984) I ran the EMT-Basic program for a large county fire department. Delivered 6 EMT-Basic classes to rookies and 4 EMT-Basics to in-service firefighters each year. 8 hours a day, five days a week.

A secret in certification training is that those that teach a lot of courses have a significantly higher student success rate that those that teach one course every two years.

A not-so-secret reality in EMT training is that most instructors have not benefitted from additional education or training to become effective as medical or technical instructors.

These instructors are dedicated, often donate their time to teach, and deeply care about EMS. But neither the state agency nor the sponsoring organization has the time or resources to help dedicated instructors improve their effectiveness as EMT instructors.

Those teaching "accelerated" EMT courses often have the resources and infrastructure to support instructors and improve student performances.

"crazycajun" -
I started as a volunteer EMT (1971), went full time four years later.
State EMT instructor in 1977
Became a Virginia Cardiac-EMT in 1978 and paramedic in 1982.

My experience is similar to yours. Just because I learned it this way does not mean everyone else needs to as well.

The military does not have that much time to go from raw recruit to field medic. Military basic training includes self and buddy care, including starting IVs and handling tourniquets.

From my perspective, following the physician education model, we can go from "zero" to Scope of Practice Paramedic without stopping at the EMT level ... and do it in a 8 hour a day/5 day a week format.

Mike

Mike,
I simply asked for actual numbers which he has not provided. I don't think it is a difficult question. Now to the rest of your post. All of the resources in the world mean nothing if the average person entering one of these programs has no understanding whatsoever of basic medical skills. Furthermore I have seen quite a few guys go through these courses and and couldn't tell you the correct term for knee cap. These companies as well as other longer classes are not interested in teaching the true medical side of being a pre-hospital provider. They are simply interested in putting a dollar in their pocket. Sadly states that do not follow the NREMT standards will not change their training to the new standards further impeding said EMT from working in other states or improving the quality of service. I m all for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 6 months. But 14 days is just not enough time to teach a quality program. Research has shown that the average student must study 2 hours for every hour spent in class. Based on that theory a 14 day program is impossible to be adequate. I understand some may learn quicker but we must look at the standard. More time needs to be spent on A&P, Biology, Chemistry, Trauma and medical illness in even the longer programs. We will never be recognized as anything more than Ambulance drivers if we don't make those changes and 14 day programs do nothing but hinder that process even further.

 

[JPINFV]

We need to separate EMT from Paramedic for this part of the discussion.

EMT, even under the new Educational Standards, remains a technical skill set under a pretty narrow scope of practice.

As long as we (we = EMS as a whole) insist on requiring people to become EMTs before paramedics, I don't think we can. For me, the big sticking point is independent judgement. Technicians do X because the cookbook-ocol says so. Professionals do X because X is the right treatment. One can deviate, the other can't. As such, I don't see how it's valid to spend 120ish hours say, "Thou shalt do X for Y," and then turn around and say, "use your judgement and ignore everything we said about how to think during EMT training." To be, the perfect example of this is the fragmentation of "BLS before ALS" instead of treating it as a continuum. Sometimes the best answer isn't to provide a BLS intervention, and only after it fails move on to ALS.

Additionally, I want EMTs to act like professionals in that same sense. Even with a much narrower scope of practice, the thought process of "ambulance = supplemental oxygen, trauma = spinal immobilization" strikes me as wrong.

Some states require an "instructor-training" program that often covers the state requirements to run an EMT class and an overview/review of the publisher or state provided instructor manual.

Maybe a qualifying knowledge test / skill demonstration.

Shouldn't the educational programs be taking the lead in ensuring that their instructors and educators are competent?

What about single subject lecturers, or does this only apply to the instructor/coordinator? If you bring in an anatomist to teach anatomy, do they need to pass a skills demonstration or paramedic knowledge test? Do I need to know the finer points of inserting an IO or initiating CPAP to teach physiology?

"Duty" is a nice term, but it is not appropriate to expect a training program or certification process to meet all of the "operational needs" of a particular skill set.

Did your EMT-Basic class include certification in operating an emergency vehicle?

"Operational needs" probably was a bit broader than I meant, however a lot of things can be covered that doesn't necessarily require the resources needed to provide EVO course.

Off the top of my head based on my EMT course and my discussions with other people,

How about a decent understanding of anatomy and physiology? How about covering some of the mechanism of action of interventions? I don't remember (granted, this was 6 years ago) Frank-Starling being mentioned in connection with trendelenburg. Heck, when I took a refresher, the RN teaching the course had some laughable concepts regarding trendelenburg to begin with (because placing a hypotensive stroke patient in semifowlers and shock position umm... does something beneficial?).

How about basics of charting? Strange, all physicians graduate being able to write a SOAP note (we're tested on it on our licensing exam practical during Step 2), yet very little was taught in EMT course regarding documentation.

Body mechanics, including sheet transfers and gurney/chair to bed transfers. On a side note, I view separating non-emergent transport from EMS as more of a priority than separating EMTs from paramedics in this discussion.

Covering the basics of restraining patients, including a basic take down.

A proper discussion of privacy laws besides, "Don't share anything or else the HIPPA (sic) monster will eat you." At a minimum, providers need to understand how "treatment, billing, and health care operations" are permitted uses.

A proper discussion on decision making besides, "Call medical control" (which is really funny when you find out that the area you work in doesn't have online medical control for EMTs).


Now this is all off the top of my head. It's not everything, but how many EMS providers aren't going to need all of those sometime in their career, and most of them often? I'm never going to praise my EMT course because it wasn't that great. It also wasn't an accelerated course. At least with the courses that go for 3 months, 5 hours a week plus a handful of Saturdays, you could more easily tack on a day or two or an hour than one advertising that they can get you through an EMT course during winter break.

 

[Fish]

Wow, every time Tom announces a course he gets grief from those who think an accelerated EMT-Basic (8 hours a day, 5 days a week) is inappropriate, impossible or immoral.

I have absolutely NO ties to Tom's program, except to refer people to his program that need EMT-Basic RIGHT NOW.

EMT-Basic training is evaluated at a sophmore college level of comprehension difficulty (14th grade), based on the medical terms used.

If I remove the terminology, the 1984-era EMT-Basic falls into the 10th grade of comprehension.

For comparison, Firefighter I and II are around the 7th grade of comprehension.

Career fire departments, municipal/federal government, military and private entities teach 8 hour/day EMT courses all the time.

Back in the day (1982-1984) I ran the EMT-Basic program for a large county fire department. Delivered 6 EMT-Basic classes to rookies and 4 EMT-Basics to in-service firefighters each year. 8 hours a day, five days a week.

A secret in certification training is that those that teach a lot of courses have a significantly higher student success rate that those that teach one course every two years.

A not-so-secret reality in EMT training is that most instructors have not benefitted from additional education or training to become effective as medical or technical instructors.

These instructors are dedicated, often donate their time to teach, and deeply care about EMS. But neither the state agency nor the sponsoring organization has the time or resources to help dedicated instructors improve their effectiveness as EMT instructors.

Those teaching "accelerated" EMT courses often have the resources and infrastructure to support instructors and improve student performances.

"crazycajun" -
I started as a volunteer EMT (1971), went full time four years later.
State EMT instructor in 1977
Became a Virginia Cardiac-EMT in 1978 and paramedic in 1982.

My experience is similar to yours. Just because I learned it this way does not mean everyone else needs to as well.

The military does not have that much time to go from raw recruit to field medic. Military basic training includes self and buddy care, including starting IVs and handling tourniquets.

From my perspective, following the physician education model, we can go from "zero" to Scope of Practice Paramedic without stopping at the EMT level ... and do it in a 8 hour a day/5 day a week format.

Mike

You referenced back in the days and Fire Fighters wanting a quick EMTB course to much in this post, neither of which can be associated with good Medicene.

 

[Tom Perroni]

Passion runs deep here in regards to EMS training and I'm glad to see that!

However a few points to consider:

I have been running this course for several years. If this course were not run correctly would the OMD sign off on it and would Virginia OEMS allow us to continue to run the program? The answer is NO!

I resent the implication that we are here just for the money. I am in business to make money to feed my family however I have given away more free training and CEU's than I can count. I also run as an EMS volunteer and teach at the Local High Schools EMT program for free as well as sponsoring Rescue stations that can not afford to send students to EMT training. In fact we have one free seat in every class.

We just recently hosted the Culpeper County Sheriffs office SWAT team and taught a EMT-B course for (1) deputy for free.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.........

I will offer (1) free slot in my December EMT-B class for someone from this forum. All you need to do is (1) send me an e-mail letting me know why you want this course. (2) When the course is complete you will need to write a day by day After Action Report of the class. the Good the Bad the Ugly. “ccjatraining@gmail.com”

I teach this because I love what I do... My class size is limited to 12 students and we have 4 experienced ALS Instructors teaching as well as Sheldon Marks MD.

I can assure you that we teach well above the standard...However you may just have to see for yourself.

I can give you all the numbers in the world and you can twist them however you want to benefit your point….But I’m going way beyond that and saying for the last time….
Don’t talk carp about a program you have not taken…..You have no idea how I teach or who my Instructor cadre is……so come to class and find out for yourself.

I am willing to stand behind whatever the person who takes this free class says in the AAR. And hopefully we can all work together in furthering EMS education.

This class is not for everyone, however it can be for anyone who is willing to come to class to learn, study and most importantly have an OPEN MIND.

P.S. If anyone would like to discuss this in person you can call me (540) 322-3000. I do not feel that I can adequately convey via a forum post my passion for delivering quality EMS education. Moreover I will answer any legitimate questions you may have about our program.

Tom

 

[Fish]

Most people on this forum agree that a Paramedic License should be the result of a degree, so naturally your going to meet resistance when talking about anything accellerated.

 

[JPINFV]

Most people on this forum agree that a Paramedic License should be the result of a degree, so naturally your going to meet resistance when talking about anything accellerated.

To be fair, we're talking about EMT training, and currently discussing making EMT training is as much pie in the sky as suggesting that paramedic training should be a bachelor of science degree. Long term? Sure, valid goals. Discussing it anywhere in the foreseeable future? Nope.

 

[crazycajun]

Passion runs deep here in regards to EMS training and I'm glad to see that!

I can give you all the numbers in the world and you can twist them however you want to benefit your point….But I’m going way beyond that and saying for the last time….
Don’t talk carp about a program you have not taken…..You have no idea how I teach or who my Instructor cadre is……so come to class and find out for yourself.

Tom

Tom,
You posted here claiming HIGH success rates and even put in bold print your 92% pass rate. All I am asking for is true numbers. This is a simple process.

1. Total of classes taught since inception
2. Total number of attendees
3. Total number of attendees that took the state test
4. Total number of attendees that passed
5. Total number of attendees that took and passed NRENT as you claim 100% pass rate.

I can get these numbers from any school in the country because they want you to know they are telling you facts. So if you don't want people talking CRAP about your program, provide some actual data. You keep stating that you will give away a free class but what does that matter? I can take a turd and paint it to look good and give it to you free. However it is still a turd.

 

[Tom Perroni]

Tom,
You posted here claiming HIGH success rates and even put in bold print your 92% pass rate. All I am asking for is true numbers. This is a simple process.

1. Total of classes taught since inception
2. Total number of attendees
3. Total number of attendees that took the state test
4. Total number of attendees that passed
5. Total number of attendees that took and passed NRENT as you claim 100% pass rate.

I can get these numbers from any school in the country because they want you to know they are telling you facts. So if you don't want people talking CRAP about your program, provide some actual data. You keep stating that you will give away a free class but what does that matter? I can take a turd and paint it to look good and give it to you free. However it is still a turd.

“I can take a turd and paint it to look good and give it to you free. However it is still a turd.”

With comments like that…I will not give you any information so stop asking. You or anyone else can think what they want.

I think you like to act like your high and mighty on the internet. So this will be the last time I post to you.

If you’re so great why don’t you teach?
If your not part of the solution you are the problem! So how are you going to fix the problems of EMS? Or are you all talk no action?
It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen with anonymity and point out what you think is wrong with everyone and everything else! But I don’t know who you are? I don’t know your background? So why should I prove myself to you?

If ANYONE on here who is a serious student has a question about our program call me and I will answer it. (540) 322-3000

As for giving you any further info not happening.

 

[crazycajun]

“I can take a turd and paint it to look good and give it to you free. However it is still a turd.”

With comments like that…I will not give you any information so stop asking. You or anyone else can think what they want.

I think you like to act like your high and mighty on the internet. So this will be the last time I post to you.

If you’re so great why don’t you teach?
If your not part of the solution you are the problem! So how are you going to fix the problems of EMS? Or are you all talk no action?
It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen with anonymity and point out what you think is wrong with everyone and everything else! But I don’t know who you are? I don’t know your background? So why should I prove myself to you?

If ANYONE on here who is a serious student has a question about our program call me and I will answer it. (540) 322-3000

As for giving you any further info not happening.

First of all YOU are advertising your school not me.
How do you know I do not teach?
Due to my position I am not allowed just as many others here to disclose my identity as per county rules.
I could care less what you may or may not think of me. Again you came on here spouting off percentage of success in your program but refuse to show the actual numbers when requested. It seems you are the one with something to hide.

By the way you are not just proving this information to me but also to other potential candidates for your school.

 

[BandageBrigade]

How hard is it to state number of students taught vs number that became certified?

 

[medic417]

The OP has been attacked and his method of teaching attacked by people ignorant to the facts. Now because of it the OP has shut down any reasonable dialougue and who can blame him?

As an educator and as a business man though my advice is develope thicker skin. Sift thru the crap the ignorant pile on you and use there posts to actually make your point, which at time my include answering questions that they do not deserve the answer to but that others may be interested in knowing.

OP consider this as a factual example. I can say based on my last Paramedic course a 100% pass rate on NR. Sounds good doesn't it. But the fact is I gave 2 students course completions as the rest did not complete everything required. Doesn't sound nearly as impressive. So perhaps giving figures would help potential students to see better how your program is doing.

OP sorry you had to endure so many uneducated and rude attacks, really surprised the mods didn't lock or delete much of this topic.

 

[JPINFV]

The OP has been attacked and his method of teaching attacked by people ignorant to the facts. Now because of it the OP has shut down any reasonable dialougue and who can blame him?

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, he choose to respond to those posts, ignored most of my posts (where I attacked the overall concept of making EMTs in 2 weeks and the system that allows it, instead of making it personal, either to him directly or his company), and when he did reply to me, he posted a laughing emoticon and offered no substantial reply. The hilarious part was when he said he was "done" with me despite never replying to one of my posts outside of posting said emoticon.

As such, I'm left to conclude that he has no actual response to my comments and commentary and would rather play with the mud slingers.

 

[medic417]

On one hand, I agree. On the other hand, he choose to respond to those posts, ignored most of my posts (where I attacked the overall concept of making EMTs in 2 weeks and the system that allows it, instead of making it personal, either to him directly or his company), and when he did reply to me, he posted a laughing emoticon and offered no substantial reply. The hilarious part was when he said he was "done" with me despite never replying to one of my posts outside of posting said emoticon.

As such, I'm left to conclude that he has no actual response to my comments and commentary and would rather play with the mud slingers.

I believe based on a quick scan of the topic he was already at a point of frustration and had given up on the hope of a quality discussion and you just caught the frustrated response.

 

[Handsome Robb]

My question is how can we expect to further our jobs into an actual profession with accelerated courses?

Not pointing the finger at you Tom, just at accelerated courses in general. Look at the rest of the world, most places require more education to be a BLS/ILS provider than the U.S. requires to be an ALS provider....There's something wrong with that. Furthermore, there is a national over-saturation of EMS providers, especially EMT-Basics except for the random rural area. Why continue to produce providers in such a short amount of time when there are already many more providers than jobs available?

Now, on to Mr. mikeward's comments:

You sir, seem to be in the profession of fighting fire, not practicing medicine. EMS = Emergency Medical Services. FD = Fire Department. As I said before about our education, we are one of the few countries in the world that still associates EMS with FD....Think about that one for a minute. Personally and no offense to the fire guys on here, if I lived in a place with fire based EMS it would take an act of God for me to call 911 for a medical problem.

"Jack of all trades, master of none" gets even worse when you try to have dual role providers.