12 week accelerated Paramedic Program!!??

[Cormaid2]

MCC 12 Week Paramedic Program Is The Real Deal!

I took the 12 week class at MCC. It was long and very stressful but the best instruction I have ever had. They teach the class several times a year and know the material and are VERY professional educators. If your not willing to dedicate 100% of your time to improving yourself than this is not the way for you to go. If you are, get ahold of Kathy and Bob. It was the best decision I ever made.

 

[jimmylesaint]

I think a lot of egos are getting all trodden on here! Egos kill .
I'm a sports physio, pitch side for 10yrs in contact sport, also an EMT-B. For me to do a 3yr paramedic degree would be wasteful. A 12 week theory program would be better and still repetitive in some areas for me.
So for people who have life experiences and degrees in similar medical sciences eg nursing especially, these shorter courses are ideal and more than sufficient to produce qualified, efficient, safe paramedic practitioners especially after the clinical side has been completed.
Perhaps the graduates will not be as good as some on this forum with huge egos- or do we call that "God complex" in medicine?:blink: But i doubt anyone is as good as them
In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P. Also the kids these days are getting smarter quicker.
Personally i am looking to register with Crowder College in Missouri.

 

[Christopher]

I think a lot of egos are getting all trodden on here! Egos kill .

Generally the ego which kills are those that believe anything less than a degree length program is appropriate for the responsibilities of a paramedic. We're laughably under educated.

I'm a sports physio, pitch side for 10yrs in contact sport, also an EMT-B. For me to do a 3yr paramedic degree would be wasteful. A 12 week theory program would be better and still repetitive in some areas for me.

We spent 12 weeks (~200 hours) on cardiology alone.

So for people who have life experiences and degrees in similar medical sciences eg nursing especially, these shorter courses are ideal and more than sufficient to produce qualified, efficient, safe paramedic practitioners especially after the clinical side has been completed.

The only "medical sciences" degrees that would likely be applicable are those in nursing (ADN/BSN). A bridge program for RN's to become Paramedics is logical and appropriate. If (and when) paramedics received degrees, I'd expect a bridge program in the other direction to be appropriate as well.

Perhaps the graduates will not be as good as some on this forum with huge egos- or do we call that "God complex" in medicine?:blink: But i doubt anyone is as good as them

Again, the god complex comes in when you feel 12 weeks is adequate. Some back of the envelope calculations shows you'd have to pull 80 hour weeks to meet the ~1000 hours of didactic and clinical education required.

In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.

It is becoming increasingly uncommon for paramedics overseas to be simply "certified" as opposed to degree'd.

Also the kids these days are getting smarter quicker.

Cramming for an exam is not an appropriate means of learning material. It is the least efficient means of learning material.

 

[terrible one]

I think we should just 'sticky' this thread so that whenever someone complains about paramedic pay and how over saturated the market is we can just reference these posts. It's almost embarrassing.

 

[jimmylesaint]

Perhaps, what next 6yr degrees for paramedics? Degrees for paramedics unnecessary- as are degrees for police. Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies.
What are the most common reasons for attending ER in USA (no particular order)
1)Chest pain 2)Respiratory distress 3)Back pain 4)Trauma-mainly sprains and broken bones 5)Abdominal pain 6)headaches7)Cuts/contusions
Very repetitive!
200hrs of cardiology in 12 weeks- were you studying part time?<_<

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps, what next 6yr degrees for paramedics? Degrees for paramedics unnecessary- as are degrees for police.

6 years? Who gets an AS or BS in 6 years? BS+Masters in 5-6 perhaps. This has been beat to death in other threads, but an AS for entry level EMS providers, BS for any ALS provider, and an MS for those who wish to continue on.

Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies.

That is EMS from the 1990's and unfortunately this backwater mindset is still commonplace. Funny enough, our EMS system in my podunk section of North Carolina looks like NASA compared to your definition.

What are the most common reasons for attending ER in USA (no particular order)
1)Chest pain 2)Respiratory distress 3)Back pain 4)Trauma-mainly sprains and broken bones 5)Abdominal pain 6)headaches7)Cuts/contusions
Very repetitive!

I won't argue the call types, they are what they are. If you're trying to make the point that you don't need an education to handle driving somebody to the hospital, you're correct. Stay an EMT or medical responder and you'll do just fine.

200hrs of cardiology in 12 weeks- were you studying part time?<_<

Didactic 3 days a week + clinicals at the same time is actually more than a full time class. My computer science classes were twice a week tops; only physics and chemistry with lab and discussion sections were more than twice a week (I think one of the engineering classes was 4 days a week, but only for an hour and was seminar style).

You've really missed the mark on where EMS is going and the role Paramedics play. Johnny and Roy are long gone and we're gradually phasing out the old guard. The skills and responsibilities entrusted to paramedics is far out of line with our education, and slowly but surely we're moving to fix that.

 

[Scott33]

Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.

No they won't.

 

[jimmylesaint]

Paramedics under trained?? Well what is required- taxi patient from scene to hospital as safely and quickly as possible- using specific protocols to stabilise trauma, medical emergencies.
That is EMS from the 1990's and unfortunately this backwater mindset is still commonplace. Funny enough, our EMS system in my podunk section of North Carolina looks like NASA compared to your definition.

The ego has landed:rofl: Why do you call it a backwater mindset- my definition is straight and true in the simplicity of the role of a paramedic. Perhaps you'd like doctors/surgeons and ER personnel to come to your wagon rather than transport? Or perhaps you'd like to enlighten us how your "NASA" system differs from the rest of the world? Johnny and Roy(whoever they are) are long gone, but Smart and Alec should be too--unless they can offer reasoned dialogue rather than cheap and empty one liners.

I won't argue the call types, they are what they are. If you're trying to make the point that you don't need an education to handle driving somebody to the hospital, you're correct. Stay an EMT or medical responder and you'll do just fine.

You miss the point- the point is like most jobs the work is repetitive and the same old injuries appear(in physical therapy- a soft tissue injury is a soft tissue injury and there is a protocol to treat it- it's not brain science) The same for paramedics the same old 99 calls the same old assess,treat and transport.
The skills and responsibilities entrusted to paramedics is far out of line with our education, and slowly but surely we're moving to fix that.
This may just be in your neck of the woods The question is, is longer education a gold standard for quality? I don't think so. Is longer hours clinical better-no, "practice doesn't make perfect"-perfect practice makes perfect.
Having said that i don't think you understand the big picture of the direction of western medicine-not just the small question of where EMS is going.
Especially in the USA with mammoth changes in the medical aid- which impacts the Big pharma(benefits them) Generally speaking though the local GP is being phased out and replaced by nurses and other specialists(paramedics included here) then they will be referring to specialist physicians and the GP(family doc)will no longer be around. Pharmacists will have drop in centres where BP/Glucose/Cholesterol,trig etc can be taken and tests done then and there and medication dished out-without a qualified doc getting involved.
Hence i concede you are almost right,paramedics will need to know and do more than they have been taught-up to and just short of operating.
Until that becomes a reality though 12weeks is ample time-depending on the person.

If i can make it on to the Crowder College course- maybe i can pop over and see how things work at your place. Here in Africa we are always keen to try improve.

 

[Christopher]

The ego has landed:rofl: Why do you call it a backwater mindset- my definition is straight and true in the simplicity of the role of a paramedic.

There are entire States that have moved past this, but I'll grant you that California, Florida, and New York still behave like that. They represent a large enough chunk of the population that I can see where this misconception comes from.

What you're describing is a First Aider or Medical First Responder; perhaps Ambulance Attendant / Operator if you live in California.

Perhaps you'd like doctors/surgeons and ER personnel to come to your wagon rather than transport?

Why not? Sometimes the best thing to do is bring the appropriate resources to your patient. This isn't so uncommon outside of the US.

Or perhaps you'd like to enlighten us how your "NASA" system differs from the rest of the world? Johnny and Roy(whoever they are) are long gone, but Smart and Alec should be too--unless they can offer reasoned dialogue rather than cheap and empty one liners.

EMS no longer means "transport", or at least not around here. Advanced Practice Paramedics and Community Paramedics are becoming integrated into systems. We transport or arrange for transports to alternative facilities and diagnose on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, we're doing all of this without the proper fundamentals and are having to play catch up. The next generation of paramedics needs to move beyond 12-week certification programs, and realize they have no business practicing as we do with such a flimsy education.

You miss the point- the point is like most jobs the work is repetitive and the same old injuries appear(in physical therapy- a soft tissue injury is a soft tissue injury and there is a protocol to treat it- it's not brain science) The same for paramedics the same old 99 calls the same old assess,treat and transport.

We're taking the opposite approach. Fewer, better educated paramedics can handle the same old 99 calls and assess and disposition the patients as appropriate. Transport is just one of the options.

The question is, is longer education a gold standard for quality? I don't think so. Is longer hours clinical better-no, "practice doesn't make perfect"-perfect practice makes perfect.

If the bare minimum competency for a nurse to give the same medications we do is an Associates Degree, and they require an order from a physician to do so...you have to wonder where paramedics get off thinking they've got what it takes to do the same thing after a 12-week certificate program. Worse still, we're asked to do surgical procedures and RSI after clinical time less than that of a hair dresser.

We can either accept a lesser scope or accept greater education, I'm honestly Ok with either approach but would rather we go with the education.

Having said that i don't think you understand the big picture of the direction of western medicine-not just the small question of where EMS is going.
Especially in the USA with mammoth changes in the medical aid- which impacts the Big pharma(benefits them) Generally speaking though the local GP is being phased out and replaced by nurses and other specialists(paramedics included here) then they will be referring to specialist physicians and the GP(family doc)will no longer be around.

Correct, except the GP is not being replaced by somebody who has a 12 week certificate. They're being replaced by nurse practitioners with Masters or PhD level educations, or PA-C's with a BA/BS and (roughly) a masters.

Pharmacists will have drop in centres where BP/Glucose/Cholesterol,trig etc can be taken and tests done then and there and medication dished out-without a qualified doc getting involved.

Pharmacists now require a PharmD (PhD). You cannot become a pharmacist through just passing the RPh alone, and besides they still required at least a BA/BS.

Hence i concede you are almost right,paramedics will need to know and do more than they have been taught-up to and just short of operating.
Until that becomes a reality though 12weeks is ample time-depending on the person.

If all they're doing is driving somebody to the hospital, 12 weeks is fine. Except this is not where EMS is going, or at least I hope not.

If i can make it on to the Crowder College course- maybe i can pop over and see how things work at your place. Here in Africa we are always keen to try improve.

We're always open to ride-a-longs (our last one was a black cloud and got a tour of the cath lab). If you're ever in Southeastern North Carolina send me a PM.

 

[jimmylesaint]

If the bare minimum competency for a nurse to give the same medications we do is an Associates Degree, and they require an order from a physician to do so...you have to wonder where paramedics get off thinking they've got what it takes to do the same thing after a 12-week certificate program. Worse still, we're asked to do surgical procedures and RSI after clinical time less than that of a hair dresser.
Your line of thinking is on "the same trodden path" and is still awed by the myth of medicine. The medical set up has generally been a culture of profit,protectionism and negligent malpractice since around the 1970s. Many Drs like the air of mystery or the aloofness to dissuade questions that they will not know the answer too. Nurses like to help this mysteriousness. However Nurses do an amazing job and so do most doctors, but i don't think it takes nurses their whole degree to learn how to give medications-normally a module on it within the degree.
What i am saying is the real problem in your equation above is not the nurses or the paramedics but the Drs.The Drs are overhyped- for too long they have decided they are the smartest in the room because they have done 6yrs+ of university(even though i have done nearly four decades in my body-when i say i have tick fever,,,then i have tick fever just write the prescription!)
The whole system is wrong, not just the paramedic side- similar to the banking system, the medical system is inherently corrupted-USA in particular is an amazing politicomedical corrupt country. Which is probably good for Breaking Bad fans.
Drs need 6yrs of med school to learn what?A&P and general surgery takes up most of the time then learning about illness and disease. Rather than learning about health and wellness. Yep, i'm also saying 6yrs of med school, far too long and unnecessary AND outdated, how many 100s of years has this tradition been going for?

You were not far off when you mentioned your NASA set up. The paramedic future will be smarter people to operate better handheld diagnostic machinery
Ultrasound dopplers, MRI handhelds, immediate blood test machines etc

 

[Handsome Robb]

Jimmylesaint.

No matter what you say here you will not convince anyone that a 12 week Paramedicine program meeting the hate minimums is appropriate and adequate.

Having the thought process that "the same 99 calls come in assess, treat and transport" is how things get missed and people have poor outcomes or god forbid someone does. That's called complacency and arguably mediocrity.

 

[Pond Life]

In UK they have branched into 3yr degrees for paramedics BUT you still can train on the job and become a paramedic that way. Different NHS areas have different rules-South West Ambulance will take EMT-B/I/P.

Hi Jimmy,
I'm afraid you have been misled on this one.
We only take NHS Paramedics, Emergency Care Practitioners or Student Paramedics through the University programmes.

We do have a few Ambulance Technicians who are Basic and Intermediate level but they are from many years ago and we no longer recruit such clinicians.

cheers
Pond Life

 

[jimmylesaint]

Robb
I guess not- i suppose it is human nature to "will" ones job into a special place where it is difficult and important and special.
assess, treat and transport=the basis of the paramedic job, it's not mediocre, negligent or complacent- the fact is that is the simplicity of the job in 3 words. I understand you are upset by it as you like to think your job was more than that-this is human nature, a desire to be part of something special.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what else you do other than assess,treat and transport?

 

[chaz90]

You're doing it wrong if you only "assess, treat, and transport." Firstly, I don't believe every patient needs to be transported. All patients do need an assessment, many need treatment of some sort, and most request transport, but to blindly throw this trifecta at all patients is willful ignorance. Furthermore, the "simple" three step process you lay out should be so much more than you're making it out to be.

Assessment? Yes, at a MFR or transport tech level "ABCs" can sum it up. The CCT paramedic with multiple drips running and a critical patient on a ventilator better have more advanced assessment skills though.

Treatment? As made clear earlier in this thread, paramedics are currently given a scope of practice that is frighteningly more advanced than the minimum education level in most areas.

If you're content to stay bogged down in EMS of the last century, keep us out of it. Many of us on and off this forum want to see EMS advance as a profession and recognize that increased education is the route we need to take. No one is arguing that monkey skills can be taught in a short period of time, but we're looking for more than that. Quite frankly, join us or move out of the way.

 

[STXmedic]

Well when you put it like that, all doctors do is assess and treat. Their job must be easier, then- There's only two things! :shock: I picked the wrong field!

You have to be kidding.


Does anybody else smell something trollish?

 

[chaz90]

Does anybody else smell something trollish?

Yes and no. I don't like to believe it, but I've met plenty of medics like this. Most of us probably have.

 

[STXmedic]

Yes and no. I don't like to believe it, but I've met plenty of medics like this. Most of us probably have.

Too many to count. Most of who I work with, actually. Just not as used to seeing it here, I guess (so adamantly at least).

 

[jimmylesaint]

Hi Pondlife
So SW ambulance don't hire the IHCD FPOS

 

[Scott33]

No.

 

[jimmylesaint]

Nothing trollish- just seems i am putting up scenarios and ideas and all i am getting back is short one liners and "join us or get out the way" attitude which to an educated person like me and ex copper makes me wonder what is being hidden by the lack of communication.
I mean tell me how long you think paramedic education should be?
Tell me how long it would take you to learn the practical side, intubate,inject,drips on a dummy. Remember the MD degree has been reduced from 6yrs study to 4yrs(with integrated clinical skills) with just as good, or dare i say even better doctors graduating.
Also with the continued advancement of equipment the role of the paramedic is made easier, provided they do CPD courses to be up to date with the advances.

For instance i wonder when paramedics will be putting serious ill patients into chemical comas? Is it the future?
Perhaps the way to improve the education as to the protocols followed is to ensure the paramedic is a qualified doctor who undertakes a 12 week "paramedic course"
I like the 12 week course because- i believe the paramedic must respond quickly,assess quickly and act quickly taking in everything. Short courses will ensure the candidate behaves in this way.(before everyone screams this quickness will kill people- what i mean is that one paramedic may assess in 5mins and come up with the right answer, another may only take 1min)
There be my food for thought, perhaps i should just step out the way now, huh?