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Stevo said:
somehow 'let freedom ring' doesn't quite carry as it once did ....
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Tell me about it. Try buying a firearm legally in California these days. Ugh.
 
fm_emt said:
Tell me about it. Try buying a firearm legally in California these days. Ugh.
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I don't have a problem buying or carrying a firearm.
 
wolfwyndd said:
Warrentless wire taping, 'sneak and peak,' . . . . . in general, 'The Patriot Act.'
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All that is good talk for political purposes, but in all reality, a very very small percentage of the population has been effected by any of the implimented rules. And I find it funny that the media jumps over any small mistake by the government and shrugs off any terror plots or activities that have been successfully stopped or identified.

In a police state, a man would not be awarded 2 million dollars from the government for being detained for a couple weeks two years ago...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5053007/
In 2004, the FBI makes official apology for mistake

2006=
On November 29, 2006, the U.S. government settled part of the lawsuit with Mayfield for a reported 2 million dollars. The United States government issued a formal apology to Mayfield as part of the settlement.
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yeah, thats a police state for you...what disregard of the citizens rights

Stevo, the main problem in your argument and Chimpie hit it right on the head is that you attribute these problems (high prison rate, low education ranks) to the government, while I (and as stated by Chimpie) advocate personal responsibility (to an extent, of course)...

The answer to high prison rate isn't to abolish what we have set as legal, do you see how ridiculous that sounds? You want # of speeding tickets to go down? Raise the speed limit...That kind of logic doesn't hold up. There is a problem, and there is nothing the government can do about it, it has to be a cultural change by the people, no amount of money from the government or letting prisoners go will change it....Heres another interesting statistic...

69% Overall, of children in the US have 2 parents who interact with them (not necessarily married)
75% European American
63% Latino descent
35% African American
I couldn't find the Asian American statistics, but from what I have read, it is the highest of the groups...

We can blame all our problems and societys woes on the evil government and the "Patriot Act" but I doubt any of us have had any real impact from any of these actions...
 
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well VinBin, any governance , be it capatalist, socialist, or whatever political stripe one may hail from is only as good as it's people are treated

now you may say a small % of the population is being abused here, and i'll agree. But the very premis of freedom lives via a common denominator in that if ONE person is being abused, the whole of us all come down one notch on the freedom scale.

that's the real impact of such things as PA 1 & PA 2

and i didn't say anything about personal responsibilities being subject to scrutiney did i?.... heaven forbid. But you'll need to admit that in the disparity we are living that middle class's responsibilities aren't as easy to meet, thus the small infractions creep in all the easier

and blaming everything on immigrants or minorities (as you've alluded) is just a copout (pun intended) isn't it? After all a police state only survives via validation and/or diversionary tactics. When the validity of the laws imposed looks thin, keeping us fighting among ourselves is the best out available

this is done all the time in politics , why do you think guns and abortion are such revoloving perenials? frankly, it gets old...

and i didn't say abolish our laws either did i ? my god how many words do you intent to stuff in my mouth man? how's about 'make some sense of the laws we do have' for a start?

case in point, i didn't read anyone here mentioning decriminalization , do i need to quote some n.o.r.m.a.l. stats here, or does this group not know what i mean by the term collusion?

people should recognize when they've been had imho....

~S~
 
Stevo said:
now you may say a small % of the population is being abused here, and i'll agree. But the very premis of freedom lives via a common denominator in that if ONE person is being abused, the whole of us all come down one notch on the freedom scale.
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You know as well as I do that while it is great political rhetoric, what you suggest is not possible. How do we stop those small % of individuals who wish to harm? We have rules/laws that tries to not only punish them, but stop them before they act. Innocent people will very rarely get in the mix every now and then, that does not indicate a failed system...Innocent men have been put in prison ever since the advent of our system, you don't tear it all down for a few mistakes, do you?

Stevo said:
and blaming everything on immigrants or minorities (as you've alluded) is just a copout (pun intended) isn't it? After all a police state only survives via validation and/or diversionary tactics. When the validity of the laws imposed looks thin, keeping us fighting among ourselves is the best out available
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I did not blame immigrants or minorities for any of the problems. If you read what I said correctly, you would have noticed I was stating that current culture in certain areas tend to be the cause of this downward spiral that pulls people into, thus leading to a life of crime. Where in this argument do you pull out that I blame minorities? Could it be the classic race/minority card that is pulled out whenever some people talk about personal/cultural responsibilty to those in the community who wish so hard to blame all on the "evil empire"?

Stevo said:
and i didn't say abolish our laws either did i ? my god how many words do you intent to stuff in my mouth man? how's about 'make some sense of the laws we do have' for a start?
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You didn't? Read up to your last few responses, you clearly indicate that you want to decriminilize certain crimes as an answer to the high prison rate...

Stevo said:
case in point, i didn't read anyone here mentioning decriminalization
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......
Stevo said:
how's the element of collusion set with you on our longest war (drugs), producing over 2 million non violent inmates? note that other countries have let go the strict standards we have, decriminalizing minor offenses
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jeepmedic said:
I don't have a problem buying or carrying a firearm.
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Uh, you're not in California. :) And if you're a LEO, you can pretty much carry concealed anywhere in the US. Us slobs in CA can't get a CCW if our life depended on it. (Well, not in any of the counties surrounding San Francisco anyway..)
 
MeckRS83 said:
Me Neither got a shotgun in the truck.
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Legal pretty much everywhere in the country, except California. :-(

We have a lot of really asinine firearm laws here.. crap that you can do in 49 other states that you can't do here.

* You have to take a test before buying a handgun
* only 1 handgun purchase every 30 days
* 10 day waiting period
* DOJ background checks
* many many perfectly legal rifles banned under SB-23, and Penal Code 12275 (Roberti-Roos) http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regagunfaqs.htm
* .50 BMG banned because "terrorists could use it"
* cannot have a magazine that can hold more than 10 rounds (unless you owned it before 1/1/2000)

... and a whole bunch of other lame crap that has done absolutely nothing to curb crime. All it's done is chipped away at the rights that we have. :|
 
VinBin said:
You know as well as I do that while it is great political rhetoric, what you suggest is not possible. How do we stop those small % of individuals who wish to harm? We have rules/laws that tries to not only punish them, but stop them before they act. Innocent people will very rarely get in the mix every now and then, that does not indicate a failed system...Innocent men have been put in prison ever since the advent of our system, you don't tear it all down for a few mistakes, do you?
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In truth, a LAW will not stop anyone from doing something they are bound and determined to do. We had laws making sending bombs through the mail illegal, but the Unibomber succeeded it doing it for decades before he was finally caught. How often have we heard on the news that so and so, who is divorced from such and such AND has a restraining order, goes off and kills such and such? Oh, but wait, we have laws!! Hence the power of determined individuals. Todays terrorists are the same way. When an individual, or group of individuals, is bound and determined to cause harm to someone else, or a group of someone elses they will succeed, no matter what the law says. I'm not saying the system we have has failed, however this illustrates that we have flaws in our system. Clearly it's not perfect. But as Stevo clearly points out, when ONE of our freedoms is infringed upon, ALL our freedoms are infringed upon.

First they came for the [terrorists]
and I did not speak out
because I was not a [terrorist].
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


originally written by Pastor Martin Niemöller
Modified by JC Hull
 
wolfwyndd said:
In truth, a LAW will not stop anyone from doing something they are bound and determined to do. We had laws making sending bombs through the mail illegal, but the Unibomber succeeded it doing it for decades before he was finally caught. How often have we heard on the news that so and so, who is divorced from such and such AND has a restraining order, goes off and kills such and such? Oh, but wait, we have laws!! Hence the power of determined individuals. Todays terrorists are the same way.
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First, I am sure everyone would agree that we have flaws in the system, no one has hinted that the system is in any way perfect...

Your argument is in some part, true but you bring up some points that miss the idea of a "law". If someone really wants to do something, yes they will go ahead and do it, but in a wider aspect, laws really do deter people from doing many things...Consider, Speed Limits for example, why do you coast at 60-70mph on a straight highway that you could easily pull off 80? The speed limit says 55, yes, some will go at 80 because they really want to, and every now and then will be pulled over. The law has accomplished what it was supposed to : Deter Speeding in the Majority of Drivers.

Your point on the restraining order doesn't make any sense. A restraining order makes it illegal for one person to come in contact with someone else. If somebody really wanted to kill someone else, a piece of paper will do nothing to stop them. A restraining order does give the person being bothered some legal power to keep someone else away, thats all it does...And in the overwhelming majority of cases, it works!
wolfwyndd said:
When an individual, or group of individuals, is bound and determined to cause harm to someone else, or a group of someone elses they will succeed, no matter what the law says. I'm not saying the system we have has failed, however this illustrates that we have flaws in our system.
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What is funny is that your argument is one of the biggest in favor of the Patriot Act and greater security and intrusion into certain aspects of our lives. The fact that the "terrorists" will stop "at nothing", is the reason we created these proactive laws of sorts, that try to put a stop to any plots as they are forming or before they start. And because the "success" of these plots can impact thousands of lives, there is a more intrusive method to sniff them out...

Only a fool sticks to the liberal chant of "individual freedoms are being infringed!" whenever a rare case pops up where some innocent man was detained, when we can see the results of countries that are ravaged by the almost regular attacks by terrorist groups...
 
It always amazes me that the ones who complain about the laws are the some people saying that the govenment didn't do anything to stop the terrorist. :wacko:
 
Sounds like to me, someone missed the 60's generation and needs to & would love to take a political /philosophy class. Once you reached a certain point in life, you will realize that all that is B.S. and only certain figures and positions actually change things in the world...There are so much more things to worry about it in "reality" .. things more pertinent & we can actually change.

R/r 911
 
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Yes, I missed the 60's by about two decades, just to clarify, all what is B.S.?
 
poop..LOL! You guy's remind me when I was in college in the coffee house many, many years ago. debating Marx's structure on political impact was everlasting or Plato's .."Sacrotic problem"...and the unfair trials of Sacrotes.
.. geez to think, I could had slept...LOL

R/r 911
 
haha...oh, just the whole arguments over government structure/policy and such...yes, I guess it is a bit pointless, but it is interesting to have some political/philosop. discussions every now and then, develops ability to debate and think critically...
 
VinBin said:
What is funny is that your argument is one of the biggest in favor of the Patriot Act and greater security and intrusion into certain aspects of our lives. The fact that the "terrorists" will stop "at nothing", is the reason we created these proactive laws of sorts, that try to put a stop to any plots as they are forming or before they start. And because the "success" of these plots can impact thousands of lives, there is a more intrusive method to sniff them out...
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Interesting. So if we can agree on the argument, why is it we're coming to two differing conclusions? Difference of opinions I guess. I just don't see the point in having a more intrusive law if everyone (or at least you and I) can agree that it's not going stop the terrorists.
 
I agreed that laws such as making murder illegal or putting up a speed limit will not deter terrorists in the same way as it might others, as you also stated.

Thats why there were more extensive actions made to be proactive to get to the terrorists and put an end to a plan before it started. I think most would agree that it can and has stopped terrorists...
 
Once you reached a certain point in life, you will realize that all that is B.S. and only certain figures and positions actually change things in the world...
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translation; the powers that be have us by the balls, so there's no sense in raising a fuss

that's the apathy factor that allows them to get away with it too

do carry on...

~S~
 
Stevo said:
translation; the powers that be have us by the balls, so there's no sense in raising a fuss

that's the apathy factor that allows them to get away with it too

do carry on...

~S~
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heh...damn Stevo, a bit harsh...

I am not sure Rid meant it just like that...
But what you say is somewhat true...
 
No a reality check... really how much power do you really think you have?.. There is a difference between apathy and understanding of real life... I really doubt those that can really change world policies are wasting their time on internet chatting....

That is why I am amused by tree huggers and movie stars, old liberal college professors actually think they "make the difference".. on what they think or say. It apparently has not nor ever has... political change comes from within from power of either of the masses or financial world.

R/r 911
 
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