Fire Truck Possibly Ran Over Airplane Crash Victim

[MMiz]

Probe So Far Inconclusive On Whether Fire Truck Ran Over Plane Crash Victim

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS/AP) — Investigators have reviewed San Francisco International Airport surveillance video to determine whether an emergency vehicle ran over one of two teenage girls killed in Saturday’s plane crash, but “it wasn’t conclusive,” a federal official said Monday.

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Working the night shift, this was one of my fears when working MVCs, and other uncontrolled scenes. Would any technology or training have prevented this (if it's true)?

 

[shfd739]

A local FD actually did this earlier this year/end of last year.

Highly intoxicated unresponsive patient was lying in the middle of the road, middle of the night plus heavy fog. Crew didn't realize guy was in the road until after the "bump" from a front wheel after rolling over him with an F450 chassis truck.

Initial caller had reported pt being further down the road and on the side of the road. They were scanning the roadsides and just missed him being in the middle of the road.

Being on nights it's a fear of mine as well. My way of preventing is to slow down further away from the scene than some would/take our time approaching watching for any hazards and splitting the road with my partner to scan and watch.

 

[EMDispatch]

Roughly 40 tons traveling 50-70 mph plus chaos equals a tragedy. Those ARFF units are generally equipped with all the extreme high tech gadgets including IR HUDs for the drivers and turret controller.

After watching the videos, i thought the first units on scene made attack on the opposite side of the craft from the slides. I haven't watched them since this report came out though. Also, if she was injured or killed prior being struck, I'd imagine a vehicle strike like that would just about ruin chances of determining that.

 

[mycrofft]

Yeah, a crash truck is more like the weight of two busses on the chassis of a single beefed-up one. Smoke, fire, foam, people moving around, debris, not hard to do. I know flight attendants are trained to scream at the pasengers to get them out, I wonder how they are supposed to marshal them outside?

 

[DPM]

SFFD and NTSB aren't saying much. One of the two confirmed fatalities may have been struck by one of the fire/rescue vehicles.

So far investigators don't know if she was actually hit. So they're trying to find that out, and if it's the case they then need to find out whether it contributed to her death or happened post-mortem.

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

Hit and ran over because a person is laid out in the tallish grass is 2 totally different things.

First, it's not confirmed yet but is certainly a possibility.

Second we as professionals should hold judgement until we know for sure what happened since we all know about the sensationalism that goes on in public news channels.

 

[wanderingmedic]

Second we as professionals should hold judgement until we know for sure what happened since we all know about the sensationalism that goes on in public news channels.

Wisdom.

 

[Rialaigh]

Emergency crews responded to a tragic accident involving hundreds of people many more of whom could have been killed or critically injured (than there were).

To be honest it would be tragic if this person was killed by an emergency response vehicle (or if it contributed to her death).

But, even if a vehicle did hit her, overall the emergency response crews did a fantastic job quickly moving people out of the hot zone into an area that enable triage and prompt medical treatment of hundreds of people. I think the focus should be on all the excellent positive lessons we can learn for response in our own areas whether it be trains, cars, ferries, planes, light rails, etc....we all know the dangers of responding in emergency response vehicles, but do we all know the positive aspects of what went on there...

 

[mycrofft]

Wisdom.

Smartness squared. The first reports are ALWAYS wrong.
Damn odd burn pattern, wings are still white and just busted up. Maybe the wing cells were empty?

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

I was there from the very beginning and it was the most awe inspiring view of the ICS at work you could possibly get.

I made the Wall Street Journal twice and now People Magazine but I'll let you detectives figure out which one i am

 

[mycrofft]

I was there from the very beginning and it was the most awe inspiring view of the ICS at work you could possibly get.

I made the Wall Street Journal twice but I'll let you detectives figure out which one i am

Public Radio cited local hospitals highly praising "the airport's triage department".

 

[DPM]

Damn odd burn pattern, wings are still white and just busted up. Maybe the wing cells were empty?

Accounts show that the Crash tenders were on scene putting out retardant on the wings etc. pretty quickly. It sounds like the majority of the fire came from an oil tank above the right engine rupturing and spilling oil into the hot engine.

In perfect conditions the fuel tanks will only have their "emergency" fuel left in them on landing. Any extra fuel is just dead weight that costs money to transport. The fuselage is burnt out after the contents burnt through / melted the skin.

In other news- did anyone watch the first responder press conference? Apparently two or three of the firefighters ran up an escape slide to make entry to the cabin... Toughness levels are off the charts on that one.

 

[AK_SAR]

Damn odd burn pattern, wings are still white and just busted up. Maybe the wing cells were empty?

Accounts show that the Crash tenders were on scene putting out retardant on the wings etc. pretty quickly. It sounds like the majority of the fire came from an oil tank above the right engine rupturing and spilling oil into the hot engine.

What's odd is that the burned areas seem to be concentrated in a couple of spots on the top of the fuselage. Some of the photos show a smaller burned area around the right engine, but most of the fire damage appears to be on top of the fuselage.

As I recall the cabin emergency oxygen tanks are often in the overhead luggage bins in airliners. I'm wondering if that might be related to why the burned areas are where they are? Just speculating.

 

[DPM]

Pretty much everything in a air craft has to be self extinguishing, the exceptions to this rule being the content of the over head bins (i.e. the passenger's luggage.)

This isn't an uncommon burn pattern in passenger aircraft.

 

[mycrofft]

The wings usually shear off and tear apart, and any fuel in them atomizes into a fireball. These broke off like someone snapped them. Odd physics, the pane must have basically slammed down onto the runway like a pancake, as compared to a regular landing rollout.

Overhead bins are near the emergency oxygen generators which are exothermic, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Ceiling burning through is not uncommon. but seeing that without other fire is odd.

PS: ever slide down an emergency slide? They can be pretty rough-textured. THat's why you keep your arms crossed, to avoid friction burns. Still, double-tough to run up one.

 

[Akulahawk]

The wings usually shear off and tear apart, and any fuel in them atomizes into a fireball. These broke off like someone snapped them. Odd physics, the pane must have basically slammed down onto the runway like a pancake, as compared to a regular landing rollout.

Overhead bins are near the emergency oxygen generators which are exothermic, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Ceiling burning through is not uncommon. but seeing that without other fire is odd.

PS: ever slide down an emergency slide? They can be pretty rough-textured. THat's why you keep your arms crossed, to avoid friction burns. Still, double-tough to run up one.

To me, it looks like the tail hit, causing the fuselage to slam onto the runway as if a very hard landing (broke the main gear) and then slid down the runway for a bit, then probably as it slid off the runway, it spun a little bit, getting air under the wings, picking up the back end of the fuselage and causing it to again slam to the ground. You're right though, not having MORE fire is odd, however, if the fuel tanks didn't rupture...

 

[DPM]

To me, it looks like the tail hit, causing the fuselage to slam onto the runway as if a very hard landing (broke the main gear) and then slid down the runway for a bit, then probably as it slid off the runway, it spun a little bit, getting air under the wings, picking up the back end of the fuselage and causing it to again slam to the ground. You're right though, not having MORE fire is odd, however, if the fuel tanks didn't rupture...

Those aircraft are designed well, so that the tanks can remain intact in this very situation. A similar accident happened to a Chinese 777 attempting to land at London Heathrow in 2006. It was found that ice forming in a filter / heat exchange caused a momentary loss in power. The plane hit the grass, lost it's gear etc but stayed mainly intact.

The 777 is a new aircraft with a good track record. There have been 2 incidents where a 777 has crashed on landing, resulting in a complete hull loss. The London crash had no loss of life and approximately 50 injuries, and also the more severe SFO crash. Self sealing fuel cells, flame retardant and self extinguishing furnishings, seats rated up to 16 G, 10 emergency exits... I'm not surprised that this many people walked away.

SFPD have released a statement saying that they do believe that one of the girls that was killed was in fact hit by a rescue vehicle. At the time, her body was out of the aircraft, on the runway close to the sea wall, in an area where 3 flight attendants were also thrown clear of the aircraft. At the time she was struck her body was covered in fire retardant foam making her nearly impossible to see. Her exact cause of death has yet to be determined.

http://www.kionrightnow.com/story/22827636/fire-chief-crews-did-run-over-sfo-plane-crash-victim

 

[mycrofft]

Those aircraft are designed well, so that the tanks can remain intact in this very situation. A similar accident happened to a Chinese 777 attempting to land at London Heathrow in 2006. It was found that ice forming in a filter / heat exchange caused a momentary loss in power. The plane hit the grass, lost it's gear etc but stayed mainly intact.

The 777 is a new aircraft with a good track record. There have been 2 incidents where a 777 has crashed on landing, resulting in a complete hull loss. The London crash had no loss of life and approximately 50 injuries, and also the more severe SFO crash. Self sealing fuel cells, flame retardant and self extinguishing furnishings, seats rated up to 16 G, 10 emergency exits... I'm not surprised that this many people walked away.

SFPD have released a statement saying that they do believe that one of the girls that was killed was in fact hit by a rescue vehicle. At the time, her body was out of the aircraft, on the runway close to the sea wall, in an area where 3 flight attendants were also thrown clear of the aircraft. At the time she was struck her body was covered in fire retardant foam making her nearly impossible to see. Her exact cause of death has yet to be determined.

http://www.kionrightnow.com/story/22827636/fire-chief-crews-did-run-over-sfo-plane-crash-victim

The 777 sounds like an aircraft which has finally "got it right". This was a sort of weird impact but not bizarre. Ejected people in crash-landing aircraft normally do not survive. Good luck and good engineering plus absence of TOTAL chaos ruled the day.

A victim covered with foam or wandering the scene and getting run down was always in the backs of our minds. Not pleasant. The driver(s) will be in trouble and deep self-questioning for quite a while.

 

[Akulahawk]

Among the reasons why the hull survived largely intact, IMHO, is that the impact occurred basically right at stall, which was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 115 KIAS, if not a bit lower, instead of a more normal approach of 135-150 KIAS.

That airframe did benefit greatly from what appears to be a very good design that took crashworthiness into account.

 

[mycrofft]

I made a mistake

The wings usually shear off and tear apart, and any fuel in them atomizes into a fireball. These broke off like someone snapped them. Odd physics, the plane must have basically slammed down onto the runway like a pancake, as compared to a regular landing rollout.

.

The wings are still apparently attached to the fuselage pretty well, considering, still even exhibit dihedral. My goof.