BLACK HOLE ALERT: Taking photos of an accident scene or an EMS encounter.

Wthout the ACLU you might not have an EMTLIFE.

I'm really encouraged by the overall tone of the replies here. Earlier threads like this were mostly "Well, why not? You can't tell me I can't take any g'darned photo I want!".
 
Does the press have any additional right to photograph over the rights of non-press members (in public that is, not including when someone gives them permission to enter an area that would otherwise be restricted).
 
"Speech" implies transmission. Taking photos and putting them in your cedar chest would not constitute transmission, although you could say it was for a look you wil w rite in your retirement. It could also be just a little creepy.
 
I recall one of the fire buff photo sites had a lot if info about this. To the effect of if you are outside the fire line it is fine to take scene pics. There was also info on how to defend taking pics to uninformed law enforcement or fire officials. When I get to my computer ill dig it up.

As a rule of thumb, the more voluminous and the more higly intricate the defense or justification, the closer it is to being wrong. :cool:

So, Joe, was that ambulance litter scarey to ride on?:rolleyes:
 
As a rule of thumb, the more voluminous and the more higly intricate the defense or justification, the closer it is to being wrong. :cool:

So, Joe, was that ambulance litter scarey to ride on?:rolleyes:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Seems like I took some photos once and put them up here. A few people got uset so I added a poll and as I recall it went overwhelmingly toward the pics being ok.
 
Does the press have any additional right to photograph over the rights of non-press members (in public that is, not including when someone gives them permission to enter an area that would otherwise be restricted).
If you are in public, you can take photos. If an area of private, you have to agree by the rules of the homeowner, if you are inside the private area. if you are in a public area, you can take pictures of the private area all you want.
1. If you are not a member of the press or writing a book, exactly what guarantee (freedom of speech, assembly, bear arms, or ????) protects your unfettered right to take photos at the scene, especially when it includes recognizeable individuals? I know there is no formal right to privacy, but exactly what would keep me from coming over, grabbing your camera, taking out the SIM card, and handing you a tenner to compensate the loss as I snap it in half and hand the camera back otherwise undamaged?
why can't you? what law would you be breaking that would prohibit you from taking pictures of a public even in the public? Laws are typically written to say what you CAN'T do, not what you can.

With the proliferation of Blogs, everyone is a reporter. with freelance photographers replacing staff photographers, anyone can take photos and sell to the newspapers.

and what's stopping you from damaging my property? well, I will defend myself and my property in any ways permitted by law. It's theft, vandalism, and possibly battery, so I will have law enforcement take action against you.

and if you do break my sim card, than I will take civil action against you, suing you for no less than 1,000,000, which is the income you cost me by not allowing me to sell that million dollar photo to the news media.
2. Constitutional and legal guarantees aside, is it socially decent to take photos of that sort? How would you like to see yourself or a loved one being treated, arrested, or dead* in the webpages of EMTLIFE r similar website?
Are all news media bloodsucking hounds, who prey on the bad things that happen to people? well, yes, they are, but that doesn't make them wrong.

and people do want to see many of those pictures.

btw I've been in the paper too. Don't think the reporter even got my consent. But as long as he wasn't preventing me from doing my job, there was really nothing I could do about it.
 
Yup we ran a traffic collision last night. Freelance picture takers were everywhere. They stayed out of our way and everyone was happy. The only downside to pictures are when your recognized you have to buy ice cream for the station.
 
If you are in public, you can take photos. If an area of private, you have to agree by the rules of the homeowner, if you are inside the private area. if you are in a public area, you can take pictures of the private area all you want.why can't you? what law would you be breaking that would prohibit you from taking pictures of a public even in the public? Laws are typically written to say what you CAN'T do, not what you can.

With the proliferation of Blogs, everyone is a reporter. with freelance photographers replacing staff photographers, anyone can take photos and sell to the newspapers.

and what's stopping you from damaging my property? well, I will defend myself and my property in any ways permitted by law. It's theft, vandalism, and possibly battery, so I will have law enforcement take action against you.

and if you do break my sim card, than I will take civil action against you, suing you for no less than 1,000,000, which is the income you cost me by not allowing me to sell that million dollar photo to the news media.Are all news media bloodsucking hounds, who prey on the bad things that happen to people? well, yes, they are, but that doesn't make them wrong.

and people do want to see many of those pictures.

btw I've been in the paper too. Don't think the reporter even got my consent. But as long as he wasn't preventing me from doing my job, there was really nothing I could do about it.

The above pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. Ethically one may disagree with anyone taking a picture to profit off someone's misfortune, but that certainly does not make it illegal.
 
THansk to all for participating above. AND presumably below. In this Black Hole (along with those about guns, running code 3, and Fire EMS versus third sevice).


All the hypothetical amateur photograhper lost in uncompensated damage was images which he did not have a financial interest in anyway.

OK, here's the acid test for any deep and abiding love of our rights and the Constitution: if it was, say, me who took the Sandisk, and somehow the photographer could identify me and etc., I assume he would do all those legal ninja moves to me.

What if, instead of me, it was Chuck Norris? Or our spouse? Would we feel so strongly about it that we would risk our arse for it?

My point is (and I was trying to get some dander up), the adult thing to do, whether or not I/we can cite reams of justifcations designed to protect the press from censorship*, is not just go rubbernecking and shooting photos of people we are privileged to see and help while at their worst .
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Let the Golden Rule be our guide. Not "I will because I CAN".


* As far as taking photos as a right , the anti-surveillancew laws regarding the recording, following and otherwise surveilling of LEO's were passed because non-government agecies like the Hell's Angels and the Aryan Brotherhood were intel gathering about law and correctonal personnel in an effort to pressure them or possibly assassinate them. I assure you that while a professional photographer or videographer might get away with it, a common citizen would not, just as the judge hearing the case would routinely bar amateur (and sometimes professional) cameras and audio recorders from her/his courtroom. It isn't a right per se, it's use as a check on wrong-doing through reporting is. Goes back to Zenger versus the Crown, telling the truth as a defense.
Or just hire the legal defense team from a British tabloid newspaper. :cool:
 
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All the hypothetical amateur photographer lost in uncompensated damage was images which he did not have a financial interest in anyway.
doesn't matter. it doesn't give anyone the right to damage his personal property, regardless of the reason.
What if, instead of me, it was Chuck Norris? Or our spouse? Would we feel so strongly about it that we would risk our arse for it?
Chuck Norris? nah, i'll let the cops deal with him. your spouse? well, what makes yours (or yours spouses) desires take precedence over mine? I will still defend me and my property as best i can.
My point...is not just go rubbernecking and shooting photos of people we are privileged to see and help while at their worst .
why not? what should the fact that we are EMTs mean that we can't take photos? i know many many firefighters that will take photos of fire scenes. should they not? should am off duty doctor not be allowed to take pictures of a crash? should a tow truck driver? What about an auto body repairman? how about an insurance investigator? or a cop? or a reporter?

Once you start making rules about who can and cannot do something you start getting into trouble, especially when you base it on something as general as ones occupation. Where do you draw the line?

Its a very slippery slope, and in this case, I have to say, the rights and desires of the many should outright the desires of the few.
I assure you that while a professional photographer or videographer might get away with it, a common citizen would not, just as the judge hearing the case would routinely bar amateur (and sometimes professional) cameras and audio recorders from her/his courtroom.
[YOUTUBE]JE1-NwZ81Ns[/YOUTUBE]
 
disregard

"Its a very slippery slope, and in this case, I have to say, the rights and desires of the many should out(weigh) the desires of the few".


The very definition of civil rights and civil behavior.






PS: check the bona fides of the youtube video author.
 
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At the fire department I volunteer at we carry a camera on all the trucks. We take pictures of accident scenes, hazmat scenes, and fires, AFTER any person requiring EMS transport has been transported. We also ensure that on Accident scenes there are no personel in the pictures (of a wrecked car, etc). These pictures are soley to show that we secured the scene, and the mechanism of injury to show why we did or did not backboard someone. Also the photo's have been used on occasion by LEO's after the fact to determine accident fault when it ends up in court. Aside from that we have a strict policy on MVA's and Medical calls that no pictures will be taken by private cameras (cell phones) etc... In fact if we have a car wreck that is a fatality and someone stops on the sidewalk and starts recording we generally will clear the sidewalk in the interest of responder and public safety. If they want to stand far back in a parking lot and take pictures that is fine but we control the scene and we have a decent amount of leeway on deciding how big our scene is. We will not allow anyone to take pictures from the side walk or road ways. And if people or the news are really trying to take pictures of the fatality we have 6 or 8 firefighters stand up around the car with tarps and basically oclude all view of what happened at all. If the news crew parks illegally in a parking lot of any private business we will get the LEO's to go move the crew to an area that they can park legally and that we (the fire department) deems far enough away from the scene.

Frankly aside from educational photo's taken for teaching oppurtunities (which in honesty are very few and far between, Im talking legitimate teaching scenarios with good discussion and good photos) and CYA liability photos (like we take). I see no positives to any photographs or video being taken on scene. And when we (the fire department) controls the scene we do everything in our power to limit the ability of anyone to take photos. Now when something like 9/11 happens...You want everything recorded as much as you can, but for your 99.999% run of the mill everything. We try to limit it as much as possible.
 
Not In Favor of Taking Photos on Scenes

As a EMS Officer, though photos can show lots, we have to remember to take care of #1, our patient. Patient safety and patient care are high priorities. Taking the time to get a photograph of the scene or of the situation can in my opinion and mine only would take time away from getting tasks that are more important done. With that said, again not in favor of that at all.

Dave
 
Ah, a lawyerly response from another website "MEDSCAPE")

"Whether" (another person is) "sharing your private information about your medical history is a violation of HIPAA (the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996) depends on how the supervisor obtained the information. If the supervisor accessed your medical records, then HIPAA would apply. If the supervisor has information about your medical conditions because you gave her that information or because you have discussed your health issues in the workplace, then HIPAA probably does not apply."
What HIPAA Covers:
HIPAA requires "covered entities" (a person or organization who furnishes, bills, or is paid for healthcare in the normal course of business) to implement safeguards to ensure that an individual's health information is used only for purposes related to treatment, payment, or healthcare operations, and that only the minimum amount of necessary information is disclosed."


Info from MEDSCAPE, and Carolyn Buppert, NP, JD Attorney, Law Office of Carolyn Buppert P.C., Bethesda, Maryland
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/766976?src=top10

This seems to place the burden on the entity who developed the information in the first place, and once the patient has released the info by openly discussing it, the pt cannot selectively try to nail folks for passing it on. The doctor's office that tells the reporter about your diabetes is liable, not the reporter?
 
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Any person that is standing on public property can take picture and there is nothing can be done about it. Now video is a bit different being some states have audio recording laws that require both party to give their permission before being recorded. Basically you can record video without actually recording audio. If you are visible from public property you have no reasonable expectation of privacy.
 
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