Taser Safety

[Veneficus]

I'm sure you've seen plenty of belligerent drunks that refused to follow instructions of became combative.

My main concern is when all drunks get tasered because they are drunk because they "might" become combative or the psych patient who is singing or praying or whatever and not a threat to anyone.

 

[Jon]

Heck no. Anything that can cause death is a lethal force. Taser use is used disportionately on minorities and drug users, and studies have shown cocaine use has a positive correlation with death after taser use. As a medic you know that electricity after myocardial irritability from cocaine is dangerous.

You may be a responsible user but others may not be. I admit that may opinion may be a little left sided but I am a strong believer in human rights.

Tasers are Less Lethal. Not Less than lethal.

Although there is potential for injury, Tasers are relatively safe, and much safer for the LEO's involved.

FYI - In PA, Batons and firearms are both classified as lethal weapons.



As for use of force... I live outside Philadelphia, PA... a city where 5 cops have been killed in the line of duty in about a year's time. The city is at war with the police. They should be able to fight back.

 

[daedalus]

A little left sided? My friend you are way left sided. Your analogy that taser use is some sort of denial of one's human rights is in my view completely absurd.

DT4EMS just pointed out ( and accurately so) that tasers have in fact saved lives; not only the officer's but the perpetrators as well. I've seen their use first hand on several occasions and since the 70's I remember very well the days of the night stick, kel lights, etc. And I remember the pastings that were handed out with those.

You don't think some cops over the past 150 years have gone overboard from time to time? It happens and I've seen it. But the difference is someone was maimed or dead as a result.

No, the tasers do save lives and that is the greatest form of human right one can have.

Absurd in perhaps many's opinions but still truth to myself. My truth can always be another's blasphemy.

Taser's have been connected to many deaths and the studies used to show they are safe have been funded by Taser International itself. Taser International has also used lawyers to force the removal of the word "taser" from Medical Examiner's reports.

There must always be some to question things because than there would be no accountability. Believe what you will, no hard feelings, I do not believe your opinions are absurd.

 

[Jon]

Absurd in perhaps many's opinions but still truth to myself. My truth can always be another's blasphemy.

Taser's have been connected to many deaths and the studies used to show they are safe have been funded by Taser International itself. Taser International has also used lawyers to force the removal of the word "taser" from Medical Examiner's reports.

There must always be some to question things because than there would be no accountability. Believe what you will, no hard feelings, I do not believe your opinions are absurd.

Daedalus,

Do you have any info on these "many deaths"? OTHER than "Amnesty International says Tasers are evil and torture". I'd like to see court cases.

Tasers are still new... and they are still finding their spot in the use-of-force continuum... some departments have them as the first line, and some have them just above firearms... but I'm 100% convinced that the good outweighs the bad, at least at this point.

 

[daedalus]

Jon

A specific court case ordering punative damages against Taser for it's product causing death directly by cardiac arrest:

In June 2008, a federal jury ordered Taser International to pay the family of Robert Heston, Jr., $6 million in punitive and compensatory damages for the 2005 death of the man who died a day after being shocked repeatedly by officers using Tasers. According to a press report, the jury "said Taser had failed to warn police in Salinas, California, that prolonged exposure to electric shock from the device could cause a risk of cardiac arrest."

-http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&refer=us&sid=aYJitFRQLpZk

Here is a department replacing tasers because of safety concerns:
http://orlando.injuryboard.com/defe...fective-and-deadly-taser.aspx?googleid=200360

Notwithstanding the widespread use of Tasers, serious safety issues including numerous deaths have plagued the company for some time now driving its stock price down nearly 80% this year.- Steven DiJoseph

Anecdotal account of taser inflicted death:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=157611

A teenager carrying a Bible and shouting "I want Jesus" was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis hospital, authorities said

.

The above may be a situation of abuse of the product.

Taser's may contribute to excited delirium deaths:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7622314


Studies may be biased in favor of Taser International in evaluating their risks:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-11-taser-study_x.htm

Statement made by Taser International on its website:

References to TASER devices as a contributing factor must be removed from autopsies in 3 in-custody deaths due to errors made by the medical examiner. ...

11 year old girl shot with taser at school:

An Orange County sheriff's deputy on Thursday shocked an 11-year-old girl with a Taser gun at an elementary school after the girl punched her in the face, authorities said.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/15721677/detail.html

Links to other deaths:
1. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iQp9AiPFhnRBQzgeSh2Yn4ZNvJBQ
2. http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071025/airport_death_071025
3. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iQp9AiPFhnRBQzgeSh2Yn4ZNvJBQ


On your side of the fence,

Study suggests Taser is safe:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/84955.php


There is TONS of literature going both ways. Its just too early to determine safety. I have enormous respect for all of you guys here and do not want to start a war over Taser products. I respect your opinions and have formed my own as well.

 

[JPINFV]

On the other hand, you have cases like what happened in Huntington Beach, CA. A teenage girl with psychological issues charged at police with a knife. Unfortunately at the time officers were not regularly issued tasers and they were waiting for a taser to arrive when she charged at them. This forced them to respond with their sidearm killing the girl.

 

[EMTCop86]

I think a lot of people get confused about Tasers. Like previously said Tasers are less lethal not less THAN lethal or non lethal. Let's say you have a 50/50 chance with dying with the Taser compared to 95/5 with an officer and his gun. I for one rather take my chances with a Taser then the officer with his gun!

Also I searched but couldn't find how many deaths there are a year compared to how many times the Taser has been deployed.

 

[daedalus]

On the other hand, you have cases like what happened in Huntington Beach, CA. A teenage girl with psychological issues charged at police with a knife. Unfortunately at the time officers were not regularly issued tasers and they were waiting for a taser to arrive when she charged at them. This forced them to respond with their sidearm killing the girl.

An understandable example of beneficial taser use.

The examples I listed above were cases where lethal force was not needed and people ended up dying.

 

[Shishkabob]

The examples I listed above were cases where lethal force was not needed and people ended up dying.

And if they would have been law abiding citizens, they would have not been tazed. Blame rest solely on them and their actions, not an innatement object created to help in those situations.

 

[Veneficus]

And if they would have been law abiding citizens, they would have not been tazed..

Both Nazis and taliban were/are law abiding citizens. are you suggesting that safety and security lies in an unchecked police state?

I think the departments that have tasers listed just before firearms probably have the right idea. Since LE has shown it cannot properly police itself many times, they alone cannot determine what level of force is best.

 

[EMTCop86]

Since LE has shown it cannot properly police itself many times, they alone cannot determine what level of force is best.

Whatever level of force is the best is the one that gets them home safely every night.

 

[Veneficus]

Whatever level of force is the best is the one that gets them home safely every night.

Are you advocating that it doesn't matter how many people are hurt or killed so long as a police officer is safe?

Maybe you should take a look at the reports of Russian police kicking in the teeth of 63 year old women protesting the Kremlin policies. If you think disproportionate use of force is never used in the US you should come to my neighborhood or watch the news.

LE are great people, who have to take a lot of risks on the behalf of society, but they should never be given carte blance on decideding their use of force. It is why we have a constitution and a seperation of powers in the US.

 

[EMTCop86]

Are you advocating that it doesn't matter how many people are hurt or killed so long as a police officer is safe?

Yes if those people are trying to hurt or kill the police officer. Same with every day citizens, if someone is trying to hurt or kill you, do what is necessary to save your own life.

Maybe you should take a look at the reports of Russian police kicking in the teeth of 63 year old women protesting the Kremlin policies. If you think disproportionate use of force is never used in the US you should come to my neighborhood or watch the news.

I never said anything about disproportionate use of force never being used. I don't watch the news, it doesn't tell the COMPLETE story and is extremely bias.

LE are great people, who have to take a lot of risks on the behalf of society, but they should never be given carte blance on decideding their use of force. It is why we have a constitution and a seperation of powers in the US.

So who should decide the use of force needed? Do I think the police department should decide solely, no, but they should have the majority vote.

 

[karaya]

Both Nazis and taliban were/are law abiding citizens. are you suggesting that safety and security lies in an unchecked police state?

I think the departments that have tasers listed just before firearms probably have the right idea. Since LE has shown it cannot properly police itself many times, they alone cannot determine what level of force is best.

Now we are comparing American police use of a taser against perpetrators with Nazis and Taliban as if they too are law abiding citizens!

They (Nazis and Taliban) were and are not law abiding citizens for you overlook one of the greatest laws of all; crimes against humanity.

Many Nazi generals, judges, etc. were tried for war crimes in Nuremberg after the war. Several stated they were just following the law, but the tribunal deemed it humanitarian crimes and sentenced several defendants to death.

Your political agenda is starting to show, Veneficus, and for a third year med student I thought you would be smarter than to post such a ridiculous comparison.

 

[daedalus]

I believe Veneficus is on target here, while it may seem absurd, the idea of unchecked ability for the police to use force is a dark path to follow.

These ideas are not new, just look at the foundations of the United States itself, and how we were born.

All of us that work with police know a lot of them as personal friends and good people, and all of us that work together in the field know there are some bad people and just plane stupid/mental folks out there. Knowing all of this now, I still believe that Police are to be held to the highest moral and ethical standards in the discharge of their "ability" to use force, and that they should be held personally accountable every time they do. The use and levels of force and their protocols in use should also be under the direction and approval of the public in the area.

 

[Jon]

Are you advocating that it doesn't matter how many people are hurt or killed so long as a police officer is safe?

Maybe you should take a look at the reports of Russian police kicking in the teeth of 63 year old women protesting the Kremlin policies. If you think disproportionate use of force is never used in the US you should come to my neighborhood or watch the news.

LE are great people, who have to take a lot of risks on the behalf of society, but they should never be given carte blance on decideding their use of force. It is why we have a constitution and a seperation of powers in the US.

In the US, despite what movies like "Training Day" depict... officers hands are pretty well tied.

The Constitution and its interpretation PROTECTS us from events you see in other countries.

 

[daedalus]

And if they would have been law abiding citizens, they would have not been tazed. Blame rest solely on them and their actions, not an innatement object created to help in those situations.

Not every crime is punishable by execution. 11 year old girls at school should not be subject to electrocution and possible cardiac arrest if they act out in class (see my post highlighting the case).

You have a valid point, but a mentor's quote rings in my head. The justice system has done it's job finely if it has exonerated a hundred guilty criminals
and one innocent man. It has failed us if it convicts a thousand criminals and one innocent man. (Gerry Spence, JD).

One person shocked who did not require such a shock is one too many.

 

[Jon]

Not every crime is punishable by execution. 11 year old girls at school should not be subject to electrocution and possible cardiac arrest if they act out in class (see my post highlighting the case).

You have a valid point, but a mentor's quote rings in my head. The justice system has done it's job finely if it has exonerated a hundred guilty criminals
and one innocent man. It has failed us if it convicts a thousand criminals and one innocent man. (Gerry Spence, JD).

One person shocked who did not require such a shock is one too many.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/15721677/detail.html
Wow. Sounds like she was on her way to church. Kids fight just as fierce as adults.

Tasers and other CEW's (Conducted Energy Weapons) work by depolarizing the nerve endings... kinda like succicholine. The energy dosen't penetrate the muscles. So it isn't a "shock" in the same way a lightning strike or sticking you finger in an electrical outlet is.

 

[medic417]

At least with a tazer odds are you live. When shot by a gun multiple times odds are you die or have permanent serious problems. So choose which you would prefer.

 

[karaya]

Not every crime is punishable by execution. 11 year old girls at school should not be subject to electrocution and possible cardiac arrest if they act out in class (see my post highlighting the case).

Daedalus, and I mean the following in a light hearted way, you must be from California! And I'll wager somewhere around the San Francisco area, because this is so far left it has to be hitting somewhere around the Pacific!