Taser Safety

[Sasha]

Not every crime is punishable by execution. 11 year old girls at school should not be subject to electrocution and possible cardiac arrest if they act out in class (see my post highlighting the case).

Let me start off by saying that I am not a fan of tasers. I think they are very over used, HOWEVER, in regards to that post, Dadelous. We are waaay past the days where kids are innocent little angels. Some children have crossed the line into needing police force to control them. The girl had done more than act out in class. Acting out in class is shouting, refusing to do work, not punching a police officer in the face.

 

[Veneficus]

tried to reply to many responses in 1 post and defend my knowledge

I am comparing any state in which the police have unchecked authority over the use of violence. I named these 2, there must be 100 others. Taliban and Nazis had laws, by which they follow(d). I think you are confusing morals and laws. It was once the law in the US that slave trading and owning was acceptable. Some, like John Calhoun, even argued the morality of it.

I would think that you could see through “crimes against humanity.” Such is nothing more than the ability of victors to vanquish those defeated, whether it be execution in the case of Nazis, life imprisonment of Former Yugoslavians or dictators in parts of Africa. Crimes against humanity is ill defined, and usually morally based which is subject to cultural interpretation. It is also dependant largely on the power of the state. When was the last time somebody from China was tried for crimes against humanity? Is it not a crime against humanity to levy harsh punishments like life in prison against those who engage in civil disobedience when they do not agree with the government? How about turning the military on a civilian populous? States do not usually cede their ability or authority to international bodies. Which is why the US does not recognize the international court.

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=723

was Governor Orval Faubus or any of the people that tried to prevent black children from going to school tried for crimes against humanity? (or for any crime at all?)What is the difference between that and the Taliban deciding females shouldn’t go to school?

My political agenda? I guess if my belief in oversight of executive power by the citizens of a nation is a political agenda different from that of allowing law enforcement to do what they value is appropriate based on the idea that suspects that police interact with must be guilty otherwise they wouldn’t be suspect. Do you think the life of a Police officer or any emergency worker is of greater value than others? That could be considered a caste system. I figured my view was a common value of a majority Americans. Politically I think I am quite moderate, but that doesn’t stop me from being able to have an academic discussion.

As for a ridiculous comparison, it seems awfully naive to me to not be aware that it is an erosion of values and rights that lead to the loss freedoms and rights as opposed to a sudden change. The comparison is not as farfetched as you might think. As for my intelligence, have you ever noticed that it is usually the lesser educated people that call others stupid the most?
The constitution does not protect you from state violence; it only allows you a legal recourse. If the local SWAT team accidentally kicks down your door thinking it was a different residence and tasers down your family because they were “resisting” while your family is trying to explain in the commotion there is a mistake, your recourse is post incident.

As for hands being tied, I would think we can all manipulate our authority over situations where protections are in place. Look at the physical restraint of patients as an example. (I agree with physical restraint, but I am not foolish enough to think it is never abused.)

The discussion of how and when tasers should be used, seems very relevant to their safety.

You want to start a real argument we could discuss “excited delirium.” But my intelligence and knowledge of biology, zoology, anthropology, sociology, and medicine might be considered suspect by those who do not understand how that may have any bearing on the topic.

Sorry for the long post, but if you are going to question how smart I am, I will usually retort.

 

[Veneficus]

Tasers and other CEW's (Conducted Energy Weapons) work by depolarizing the nerve endings... kinda like succicholine. The energy dosen't penetrate the muscles. So it isn't a "shock" in the same way a lightning strike or sticking you finger in an electrical outlet is.

Does it incapacitate people by depolarizing cutaneous nerves if it doesn't penetrate muscle?

"The target's body is never exposed to the 50 kV. The X26—the model commonly used by police departments—delivers a peak voltage of 1200 V to the body. Once the barbs establish a circuit, the gun generates a series of 100-microsecond pulses at a rate of 19 per second. Each pulse carries 100 microcoulombs of charge, so the average current is 1.9 milliamperes. To force the muscles to contract without risking electrocution, the signal was designed to exploit the difference between heart muscle and skeletal muscle."

 

[daedalus]

Daedalus, and I mean the following in a light hearted way, you must be from California! And I'll wager somewhere around the San Francisco area, because this is so far left it has to be hitting somewhere around the Pacific!

Actually Ray, I am from LA, but am making the move up to the bay area soon!
So you are right!

I come from a conservative family however so I really love everyone.

-ian

 

[karaya]

Sorry for the long post, but if you are going to question how smart I am, I will usually retort.

I respect your intelligence Veneficus and I don't believe my response to your earlier thread was an indictment that you were somehow obtuse. And if you took it that way, you have my humble apologies.

My intent was (and still is ) that your compassions are in my opinion - shall I say extreme given the basis of the original subject of taser safety. I feel that such heavy handed comparisons are intended to intimidate weaker minds and advance personal agendas. Now again, this is my opinion and not a target of your intelligence.

But let's discuss one factor about taser's in this country. Police departments for the most part are governed by a body of elected officials such as mayors, council members, etc. These folks represent the citizens they serve.

Police usually have to get approval for the purchase of tasers (and other capitol assets) from their elected overseers. It is us, John Q. Citizen, that can change the use of such devices through our elected officials. So, this is in no way a police state that the citizens can't change. Our separation of powers allow for this.

 

[karaya]

Actually Ray, I am from LA, but am making the move up to the bay area soon!
So you are right!

I come from a conservative family however so I really love everyone.

-ian

Ah ha! My radar wasn't too far off! Here's the real funny part. I'm moving to California in a few months, but not San Francisco. The San Diego area will be my new home.

Good luck with your upcoming move.

 

[Veneficus]

I respect your intelligence Veneficus and I don't believe my response to your earlier thread was an indictment that you were somehow obtuse. And if you took it that way, you have my humble apologies.

What my intent was (and still is ) that your compassions are in my opinion - shall I say extreme given the basis of the original subject of taser safety. I feel that such heavy handed comparisons are intended to intimidate weaker minds and advance personal agendas. Now again, this is my opinion and not a target of your intelligence.

But let's discuss one factor about taser's in this country. Police departments for the most part are governed by a body of elected officials such as mayors, council members, etc. These folks represent the citizens they serve.

Police for the most part had to get approval for the purchase of tasers from their elected overseers. It is us, John Q. Citizen, that can change the use of such devices through our elected officials. So, this is in no way a police state that the citizens can't change. Our separation of powers allow for this.

My original point that started this was that it should be J.Q. Pulblic that overees the means police use, not exculsively the police. The US is not a police state and I was not trying to call it one. I was trying to demonstrate what happens when the public has no input.

 

[triemal04]

The use and levels of force and their protocols in use should also be under the direction and approval of the public in the area.

Seriously? You don't honestly think that do you? Despite what many people want to believe, not everyone is a nice, happy, law-abiding citizen that, if they accidently break the law will immedietly comply with all requests by law enforcement. Police in the US are armed with the weopens they have for a reason, and allowing the public to direct and approve what they could carry would result (not everywhere, but in many, many places) in them losing those tools. Which would be a bad thing. Perfect example is Oakland right now. If it where put to a vote, it'd probably be easy to have the cops to be forced to give up their guns. Of course, nobody else would, and all the same jackasses that cause problems would be continuing to cause problems.

The average person does not always have enough knowledge to judge what should or shouldn't be done in a given situation that police may encounter. Allowing uninformed, untrained, and unqualified people to make decisions for them is ridiculous. Would you like it if the average Joe Blow went through your protocols and decidied what you could or couldn't do? There's no difference between that, and what you said above.

 

[ffemt8978]

This is not the forum to discuss LE use of force, less lethal devices, or who should determine what authority LE have.

Thread closed.