Why do medics with the FD make more?

The FD/PD is the municipal version of the federal military- they exist to protect against and mitigate disaster and derive value primarily by preventing disaster.
 
BEN52 said:
This is why you make less. You can thank him and all the folks just like him.
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Considering Remi probably makes more than you and I combined...

No one was hating on firefighters for making more. Someone asked a question and it was answered.

What you've displayed is why people think FFs are overpaid. You think you're worth more than you are and get all butthurt when someone tries to tell you otherwise.

You operate at a loss, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. You spend more than you make therefore you're operating at a loss...pretty simple concept.
 
And the key is that they can operate at a loss. Private can't.
 
The problem is that in the US its ingrained in us to have the mentality that everything always needs to result in profit and that is just the way the world works. There are some things that should not be profit based in my mind, and EMS is one of them.

Firefighters, and for that matter EMS personnel, are like insurance. You hope you don't need them, and many people will never need them in their lifetime, but they are there for when you DO need them. FDs and their union are good at educating the public on this basic concept. The rest of EMS is a total failure at it. I think having private ambulance companies doing 911 is almost as ridiculous as having private police companies replace police departments. EMS shouldn't have to be Fire based, but I still don't think it should privatized to the extent it is.

Of course the rampant abuse of 911 and ERs is partly why EMS in the US is a joke compared to much of the world. It's hard to justify having highly trained, highly educated(and well paid) providers when most of the 911 calls you respond to are for people who just want a taxi drive to the ER, or see EMS/ERs as a source of free drugs and free meals.
 
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hogwiley said:
Of course the rampant abuse of 911 and ERs is partly why EMS in the US is a joke compared to much of the world. It's hard to justify having highly trained, highly educated(and well paid) providers when most of the 911 calls you respond to are for people who just want a taxi drive to the ER, or see EMS/ERs as a source of free drugs and free meals.
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Or, more commonly, as primary care. That is the real reason why our EMS systems see more use as an expensive taxi ride to the ED, many more people use the ED as their PCP in this country compared to anywhere else in the developed world. It's not about seeking drugs or food (though of course it happens), it's just that it's how our system is sadly equipped to provide the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum with basic healthcare services.
 
hogwiley said:
The problem is that in the US its ingrained in us to have the mentality that everything always needs to result in profit...
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No, this is true EVERYWHERE. There isn't a person who given the option to engage in investment doesn't want a positive return. Whether this is in your daily work, your 401k, savings account, or your home - it's all the same. We ALL engage to increase value.

Or... perhaps I can interest you in some investments?
 
Getting back to the OP's original post....in my HUMBLE OPINION (as a FF/MEDIC who works for an IAFF represented FD) I believe we get paid more than the private EMS employees for a couple reasons: 1) we're dual role. Suppression and EMS. 2)Not to mention, everything that happens in between from car wrecks to HAZMAT response to "cat up a tree" calls. Private EMTs transport patients from A to B. That's really it. No PR. No fires. No danger. In addition, like it or not....I've seen ALOT more private EMTs driving with no regard for the public and dressing sloppy and showing a lack of professionalism as compared to the city/municipal fire-medics. Not all FF-medics are professionals and not all private EMTs are slobs.

I worked private prior to "winning the lottery" and getting hired on a city FD and I have COMPLETE RESPECT for 99% of the men and women who work EMS, either private or city based. We're all doing our best to provide for our patients and our employers. Do I believe that the union has helped us get better wages? You bet. But I should expect something in return for the monthly dues that me and a few hundred thousand of my brothers & sisters are paying. At the end of the day, I didn't get into this job to get rich. I got in because I wanted to do something exciting where I could make a difference in a person's life. This profession has cured my ills in spades.
 
sweetpete said:
Getting back to the OP's original post....in my HUMBLE OPINION (as a FF/MEDIC who works for an IAFF represented FD) I believe we get paid more than the private EMS employees for a couple reasons: 1) we're dual role. Suppression and EMS. 2)Not to mention, everything that happens in between from car wrecks to HAZMAT response to "cat up a tree" calls. Private EMTs transport patients from A to B. That's really it. No PR. No fires. No danger. In addition, like it or not....I've seen ALOT more private EMTs driving with no regard for the public and dressing sloppy and showing a lack of professionalism as compared to the city/municipal fire-medics. Not all FF-medics are professionals and not all private EMTs are slobs.

I worked private prior to "winning the lottery" and getting hired on a city FD and I have COMPLETE RESPECT for 99% of the men and women who work EMS, either private or city based. We're all doing our best to provide for our patients and our employers. Do I believe that the union has helped us get better wages? You bet. But I should expect something in return for the monthly dues that me and a few hundred thousand of my brothers & sisters are paying. At the end of the day, I didn't get into this job to get rich. I got in because I wanted to do something exciting where I could make a difference in a person's life. This profession has cured my ills in spades.
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I'll give you a chance to take back those words.

Sure, my job is not as dangerous as interior firefighting, but to say there is no danger is an absolute slap in the face to all the EMS professionals out there who put themselves at risk on a daily basis, just as you do.
 
Cops have vests and weapons, FFs have turnouts and SCBAs, EMS...well we have a radio and verbal deescalation skills and that's about it.

I agree that firefighting is dangerous but you must've worked in a really nice town in your private EMS days because EMS providers are attacked and hurt every day not to mention those who die in MVAs, some of which are their fault and others that are not.

I'm with Tigger, pretty disrespectful to go on and on about your "winning the lottery" and following it with statements that our jobs aren't as important because they're not "as dangerous" as yours.

Also, you're painting with a very broad brush. I work for a private under a public utility model and we have plenty of PR events.

I've also seen many FEOs drive without any regard for public safety as well. We had an engine not to long ago blast a red light without clearing it and nearly kill my partner and I, who were also going emergent, had the right of way but stopped at a green light so the "heroes" didn't t-bone is doing 45+ mph in their big red truck.

We see fire every day forcing people into intersections against the light, tailgating drivers who aren't yielding while all they're using is visual war in signals and no audible.

What I'm trying to say is, you're brothers and sisters aren't all gods and goddesses among us lowly private service providers, so get off your high horse.
 
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Tigger said:
I'll give you a chance to take back those words.

Sure, my job is not as dangerous as interior firefighting, but to say there is no danger is an absolute slap in the face to all the EMS professionals out there who put themselves at risk on a daily basis, just as you do.
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While danger is an element of EMS, the EMS job description does not include mitigating immediate threats; both FD and PD have those responsibilities.

If EMS chooses to remain in a volatile environment, that is your choice based on your own comfort level; whether misguided or not. However, if you get injured and had an opportunity to leave the scene but did not take it, your employer will likely pin you down as to why you stayed BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION. Transporting agencies will typically have your back for pulling out because, as you said, you have not been provided the appropriate gear.
 
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gotshirtz001 said:
While danger is an element of EMS, the EMS job description does not include mitigating immediate threats; both FD and PD have those responsibilities.

If the situation gets dodgy, EMS leaves.
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Which is not equivalent to no danger, as originally stated.

The fire service loves to marginalize EMS, this is just another example.
 
As a private transporting medic in Oakland, CA, and an IAFF represented firefighter, I am speaking from an informed perspective. I'm not saying transporting medics are without risk, but don't overreach...

"PD on scene, scene secure" is generally the words that EMS waits for.
 
LACoGurneyjockey said:
And so does every FD I've ever run with... So, what's your point?
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You're forgetting their turnouts are bulletproof.

If I remember correctly an EMS Provider recently left a scene he felt uncomfortable in and was nailed to the wall for it. So now if we leave we're wrong but if we stay we're wrong.

There are also instances where leaving isn't an option. Is it common? No, but it does happen.

Also, I don't know about other agencies but we are often told "per the cal-taker the scene is code 4" when PD is not on scene, we can stills stage if we choose but it's not uncommon for us to ask if PD is on scene then be told no and if we elect to stage we're told "per the call taker xx year old male/female, not violent, no weapons." While they're not directly telling us not to stage they're indirectly asking us to enter, on more than one occasion I've gone on scene in these instances into a scene that I was not comfortable with. I've also tried to leave and had family become extremely agitated by the fact we're leaving.

Recently we had a call where the crew went on scene and the RP was extremely agitated by the way the hospital had treated his wife and then discharged her when he felt it was in appreciate and he was actually escorted from the premises by hospital security. He promptly returned home and called 911 and was very polite so the crew was told it was code 4 to enter. When they arrived on scene they arrived to an angry RP with an AR15 next to him. They then left and were persecuted by PD and Fire for "over-reacting". Again, damned if you do damned if you don't. Come to find out the RP was a VST with severe PTSD and a record of violence towards both LE and Healthcare workers. But our job isn't dangerous at all.

Unfortunately EMS providers are assaulted more commonly than we all think. However we have developed a culture of not reporting these incidents because "it's part of the job." Why is that?

No one is saying that our job is as dangerous as LE or Fire but to say there is no danger to EMS is incorrect and an ignorant statement.
 
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