Which should EMS be merged with

[medic417]

I believe the fire based ems system I work in works really well. 6 firefighter/emt/paramedics on every call at a minimum. MVA's get more depending on the severity. In my neck of the woods there is no debate over it. It is what we do and everyone I know loves it. Our engines have 2 basics and 2 medics and our rescues are 1 and 1. We do not fight a whole lot of fire but we run a lot of medical calls and MVA's. We are a total hazard system providing Fire, EMS, extrication and technical rescue. We train every shift on fire related topics and have to complete 60 hours of CE's not including our Refresher class.

It is not too much to do both.

I do think the a fire department with ALS engine company's along with an EMS division may be a great way to go, but seperate private services seem to cause a lot of headache's. No oversight, no pride, no employee retention just a revolving door. With the EMS division set-up there is a place for the men and women who do not want to fight fire to also provide emergency services and work in public safety. Any problems at the station our due to weak leadership who allow it and bad apples who chose to be :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:'s.

I think Fire and EMS go hand in hand and EMS should be public safety. If you dial 911 the people who show up should be a public safety agency.

I know in the phoenix metro area we have been doing the fire based ems thing for years and the hard times of adjusting are in the past and many places the change is new or is still going on and there are oldtimers on each side who do not want to accept the change and will do anything to cause problems.

LOL @ 6 people responding to every call what a waste of tax payer funds.

http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?p=1037880

A letter from the IAFF in part says the following:

"The IAFF opposes the consolidation of fire and emergency services departments with local law enforcement agencies, including the move to so-called "public safety officers" who are cross-trained to perform both fire/EMS and law enforcement functions at the same time at an incident.

Implementing PSOs undermines effective fire suppression and emergency medical response by relying on personnel on scene to act in multiple roles -- roles that are often at odds with each other and which cannot be done simultaneously, such as securing a crime scene and treating a gunshot victim or attacking a fire.

The roles, training and equipment for fire fighters/paramedics and police are vastly different and distinct and should remain separate. In addition, the consolidation concept breaks up the company unit of a fire department, whereas police respond as individuals or in teams of no more than two. It also frequently means a reduction in fire fighter staffing and crew size.

Attempts to consolidate fire and police departments are traditionally associated with efforts to cut the cost of public safety, but the anticipated benefits are rarely realized and instead result in poor service, increased risk for the community and require additional resources -- thus increasing costs. "



Wow how could they say that? They have claimed for years that there is no problem multitasking. They force EMS into fire. But now some are trying to force fire into police they don't like that do they. Police and fire are more closely related than Fire and EMS. Also EMS is a two man team. I don't know but seems like they just made my point of opposing EMS being forced to join fire for me.

 

[Veneficus]

I believe the fire based ems system I work in works really well. 6 firefighter/emt/paramedics on every call at a minimum. MVA's get more depending on the severity. In my neck of the woods there is no debate over it. It is what we do and everyone I know loves it. Our engines have 2 basics and 2 medics and our rescues are 1 and 1. We do not fight a whole lot of fire but we run a lot of medical calls and MVA's. We are a total hazard system providing Fire, EMS, extrication and technical rescue. We train every shift on fire related topics and have to complete 60 hours of CE's not including our Refresher class.

It is not too much to do both.

I do think the a fire department with ALS engine company's along with an EMS division may be a great way to go, but seperate private services seem to cause a lot of headache's. No oversight, no pride, no employee retention just a revolving door. With the EMS division set-up there is a place for the men and women who do not want to fight fire to also provide emergency services and work in public safety. Any problems at the station our due to weak leadership who allow it and bad apples who chose to be :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:'s.

I think Fire and EMS go hand in hand and EMS should be public safety. If you dial 911 the people who show up should be a public safety agency.

I know in the phoenix metro area we have been doing the fire based ems thing for years and the hard times of adjusting are in the past and many places the change is new or is still going on and there are oldtimers on each side who do not want to accept the change and will do anything to cause problems.

I wonder, if EMS duties require a more public health role and less simply transporting to a healthcare provider as is the current trend worldwide would the fire agencies there accept such a role?

 

[firecoins]

3 out of 15 of my services members are also corrections officers.
4 out of 15 members are coroners.

Coronors are MDs here. No MDs inour service except the medical director. He's an ER doctor, not a medical examiner.

 

[VentMedic]

I believe we need to merge EMS with the Correctional department or Sanitational Department. It just makes sense.

Some very successful EMS services have been out of prisons. EMT-B is taught in many prisons especially in that states the don't do a background check for certification.

We also know how useful prisoners have been in firefighting.

 

[firecoins]

Some very successful EMS services have been out of prisons. EMT-B is taught in many prisons especially in that states the don't do a background check for certification.

We also know how useful prisoners have been in firefighting.

I was kidding since EMS should be a stand alone agency.

I know prisoners are used a FF somewhere but not where I live.

 

[AZFF/EMT]

Well at my department before we put up more engines we used to roll rescue's only on almost every call and have to wait for a volunteer or two to show up. Noq that is fine on the medical calls that are not very complex, but working a code 2 man isn't very productive, extricating a patient from a vehicle with 2 men isn't very productive eitherLifting 400 pound patients through a trailer and out to your gurney isn't very easy either and I am a pretty freaking strong guy. We run mutual aid to a town about 30 miles south of us and the only unit they have is an ALS rescue augmented by about 7 volunteers which never show up. This town runs about 1000 calls a year and they have the SR85, I8 and maricopa highway running right through the town. I know the people down there trapped in there vehicles for 30+ minutes sure wish an engine with 4 extra guys were on scene. There fires are even better, havent lost a foundation in years. Now when that rescue is gone, those medical pateients wait 30+ minutes for treatment from one of our rescues on mutual aid. Or they may get a first responder volly 1 man engine to show up and hold there hand while the circle the drain. I would think having an ALS engine in town would sure help a lot.

Are 6 guys needed on every call? No, of course not, but it sure is great to have when you need them. The old way of send an ambulance and call for help if you need it cost patients very critical time. How many diabetic problem calls have you run on to get on scene and find a code? or ill person/DB ect.

Engine's stabalize and assist treatment, movemnet, and ride in on the rescue when manpower is needed. I've seen a dramatic change in the outcome of our patients in the past two years since going to the current system. And when the rescues are all out on calls, the patient still gets an ALS engine company on scene in 5 minutes to treat and stabalize until a transport unit can get on scene.

 

[AZFF/EMT]

The way I see it we do provide a public health service.

 

[daedalus]

Well at my department before we put up more engines we used to roll rescue's only on almost every call and have to wait for a volunteer or two to show up. Noq that is fine on the medical calls that are not very complex, but working a code 2 man isn't very productive, extricating a patient from a vehicle with 2 men isn't very productive eitherLifting 400 pound patients through a trailer and out to your gurney isn't very easy either and I am a pretty freaking strong guy. We run mutual aid to a town about 30 miles south of us and the only unit they have is an ALS rescue augmented by about 7 volunteers which never show up. This town runs about 1000 calls a year and they have the SR85, I8 and maricopa highway running right through the town. I know the people down there trapped in there vehicles for 30+ minutes sure wish an engine with 4 extra guys were on scene. There fires are even better, havent lost a foundation in years. Now when that rescue is gone, those medical pateients wait 30+ minutes for treatment from one of our rescues on mutual aid. Or they may get a first responder volly 1 man engine to show up and hold there hand while the circle the drain. I would think having an ALS engine in town would sure help a lot.

Are 6 guys needed on every call? No, of course not, but it sure is great to have when you need them. The old way of send an ambulance and call for help if you need it cost patients very critical time. How many diabetic problem calls have you run on to get on scene and find a code? or ill person/DB ect.

Engine's stabalize and assist treatment, movemnet, and ride in on the rescue when manpower is needed. I've seen a dramatic change in the outcome of our patients in the past two years since going to the current system. And when the rescues are all out on calls, the patient still gets an ALS engine company on scene in 5 minutes to treat and stabalize until a transport unit can get on scene.

When RNs are in charge of the treatment decisions of supposed physician extenders, than the system is broken. That is not to say that RNs are not very highly educated individuals, who also are more educated than most paramedics, but that it is indeed a strange relationship to allow RNs to control your treatment decisions.

Also, EMS is not public safety. It is supposed to be medicine.

 

[Veneficus]

The way I see it we do provide a public health service.

I would be interested to hear what public health initiatives your department is involved with.

 

[boingo]

Then why not combine fire with police? That way we can have it be a three way with members trained as EMTs, fire suppression technicians, and officers.

Oh no, can't do that, 2 completely different jobs according to the IAFC. Fire fighting and medical care are exactly the same, just like plumbing and carpentry....see?

 

[firecoins]

I would be interested to hear what public health initiatives your department is involved with.

AEDs in school with community CPR.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

EMS is medicine. EMS is not firefighting. EMS is not law enforcement. EMS is not public safety. EMS is medicine. It should not be merged with anything. It should stand alone. EMS is medicine. I have repeated the flaws of fire-based EMS over and over again until I was blue in the face, and my points do not change. I don't even want to imagine PD-based EMS. EMS is medicine. Period.

 

[firecoins]

Only cops can be blue in the face. We use red and white.

 

[JPINFV]

Only cops can be blue in the face. We use red and white.

Of course that depends on where you are. Some states allow blue lights on all emergency vehicles.