What should be paid?

[Shishkabob]

Tell that to the person who's family member could have been saved by that toy. Or use family member operating for the FD that died and that toy could have prevented it.

You can use that argument for every item ever invented, and as such, is null and void.



But even more so, let me qualify it for you. There are FDs who would rather replace their 5yo. perfect running order, tanker for a newer tanker, then spend the money on a medical 'toy' that not only will further increase what we can do for our patients, but also be used a helluva lot more and therefor justify its cost.

 

[Aidey]

I'm with Linuss on this one. How are the tax payers better served? By the FD spending $300,000 on a new tender or spending that same $300,000 on 12 new EKG monitors that also have capnography? How many lives will that tender save vs how many lives will now having capnography save? I bet any FD that also transports in the nation intubates more than they do rescues in a burning building.

 

[scottyb]

I can see this is going to be an argument with no understanding for each others points. Calling my statement null and void because it doesn't fit your opinion is not an argument.

You can use that argument for every item ever invented, and as such, is null and void.

Way to isolate only part my post. I was actually kind of agreeing with you. Let me be more clear: I understand that some things are purchased for the, "we may use it" or "This rig has (insert new, unproven technology here), we need to replace or 2007 rig".

And as far as your argument, which I see as a general statement. I am sure there are fire departments that don't replace a five year old tanker instead of a medical device that will save countless lives.

 

[scottyb]

Also, I forgot to mention, the money pools are separate and not controlled by the FD/ambulance themselves and instead are dictated by politicians. Such is the way of the world we live in, politicians have there hands in everything. But, that is another argument all together.

 

[46Young]

Heh. Have you seen the starting salaries for NYPD lately? Rookies make something like $27K. It's really a disgrace, but when the PBA last negotiated the contract, they agreed to reduce the starting salary in exchange for top pay in five years. Frankly, I don't know how you live on that money in NYC, unless you live in a box under a subway overpass and eat cat food.

I work for the state, and I won't get started on the massive pay inequities. Suffice it to say that there are secretaries making more than lawyers with 7-10 years of experience (oh, and there are brand new attorneys being brought in at starting salaries higher than people here 4-5 years).

Don't try to figure out where the public services put their value. It will just make your head hurt.

Your info is dated. The union has negotiated a better deal as of late:
http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_BenefitsOverview.aspx

I know what you mean regarding the pay disparity between those with 4-6 year degrees and public service. I'm less than two years in and making more than accountants, some attorneys, RN's RT's and teachers. If it wasn't this way, I wouldn't have moved to N'thn Va.

Marginal improvement for FDNY EMS as well by way of the union:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_salary_benefits_042607.shtml

Still not enough to survivr there, though. I'm glad I left.

 

[46Young]

Also, I forgot to mention, the money pools are separate and not controlled by the FD/ambulance themselves and instead are dictated by politicians. Such is the way of the world we live in, politicians have there hands in everything. But, that is another argument all together.

Sure. People tend to overlook that certain grants awarded to the dept need to be used, otherwise the money will disappear. These monies will typically be allocacted for specific purposes, not at the discretion of the FD.

 

[46Young]

So I was reading an article a couple of months ago fron the Orange County Register and it was about firefighter salaries, there was an Engineer/paramedic with OCFA who made 200k+ last year of course with overtime, and only has a HS diploma. What do you think min or max salaries should be in ems weather fire/based or not

A firemedic that rides the box with some frequency as well as suppression pieces basically does the exact same job as a single role medic as well as suppression duties, which can be immediately dangerous to life and health. The dual role medic that does txp ought to receive extra compensation as such.

Let's look at NYC (outer boroughs) and Fairfax County Va, both of which have near a equal cost of living. There are no dual role medics in NYC. FDNY medics get around 60k as a top out. Hosp based 911 medics earn in the mid 60's, and top out quicker than FDNY medics, albeit with no pension, save 1199 shops (Jamaica).

A rookie FF at FXCO earns around 48k. The firemedic earns around 65k. That's about 130% of a FF salary. Unfair? Too highly compensated? No way.

Let's say that the firemedic spends about half of their time on the box, which is about average for the dept. Let's also forget that they also ride as engine medic, for argument's sake. The firemedic is already expected to maintain proficiency as a basic FF (48k), and also do the job, the same job, as a single role medic, at least half the time (30-32k). 65k (or 130%) is about right, since you're not doing suppression while you're riding the box.

For those that say it's too difficult to maintain proficiency on both sides, you're basically saying that I'm smarter than you, since that exactly what I do, as do many others. Either it's not that tough to be dual role, or you're not bright enough to do it, and assume the same of everyone else. Which is it?

 

[46Young]

Here's another angle - whether you're single or dual role, your compensation ought to be adequate to achieve several financial goals, which will be partly dependant on having a pension vs a 401k. Here they are:

-Room and board (obviously)

-The ability to max out your 401k or other deferred comp options. Retirees grossly underestimate their financial needs in retirement. You'll need at least 100% of your final yearly salary to live well. Assuming you have enough in deferred comp to provide this, inflation will quickly erode your purchasing power. Many make the mistake of putting 100% of their post retirement funds in fixed income securities or maybe a bond fund (the intermediate term bond index consistently outperforms any other bond index over the long term, btw) to provide post retirement income, not realizing that the principal still needs to grow, at least at the pace of inflation. a small allocation in the total market stock index, for example, should accomplish this.

-The ability to put 20% down on a house. This saves the expense of mortgage insurance. Paying more than 20%, however, is foolish, as is paying extra into the principal. Those funds would be much better spent in an investment account that outperforms the interest rate of the mortgage. those funds will be worth way more than the interest you would otherwise save on the mortgage, and extra payments into the principal aren't even tax deductible. Most importantly, if you're ever out of work for a period of time, you can turn to that investment account to pay the mortgage in the interim.

-For those earning a pension, that benefit also needs to grow, and you'll likely be paying more for post retirement medical benefits as well. Let's say your pension benefit is 150k/yr (A 401k would need to have 3 million in a bond fund throwing of 5% yearly to match that). A good strategy would be to have at least 150k in a 457 or whatever invested moderately aggressively in a stock index fund to grow while also compensating for inflation, to add to the pension benefit. More money would be desired, though, to also provide income for medical expenses.

Don't take my word for it. Read anything and everything written by Ric Edelman. Visit his site as well. Just trying to help.

 

[EMSLaw]

Your info is dated. The union has negotiated a better deal as of late:
http://www.nypdrecruit.com/NYPD_BenefitsOverview.aspx

I know what you mean regarding the pay disparity between those with 4-6 year degrees and public service. I'm less than two years in and making more than accountants, some attorneys, RN's RT's and teachers. If it wasn't this way, I wouldn't have moved to N'thn Va.

Marginal improvement for FDNY EMS as well by way of the union:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_salary_benefits_042607.shtml

Still not enough to survivr there, though. I'm glad I left.

I'm glad to see the salary has improved - well, almost doubled, for new officers. Though I still don't see anything under 60K as a living wage when you're required to live in NYC. I suppose you better pick up all the overtime you can.

 

[46Young]

I'm glad to see the salary has improved - well, almost doubled, for new officers. Though I still don't see anything under 60K as a living wage when you're required to live in NYC. I suppose you better pick up all the overtime you can.

That's precisely why I left. I was working OT whenever possible. when I left NY back in '07 rookies were getting the rate around 25k/yr for the first six months, and then 32k afterward. They frequently got screwed working those "impact zones" as well. I think a rookie officer out of the academy back then was eligible for food stamps. PD overtime is scarce, last I heard, and it's tough to be available for side jobs when you work 8 hour shifts every day. Same thing for FDNY EMS, although I've heard that they're going to try 12's again.