We don't need "training" in EMS

[thegreypilgrim]

We need education.

For those of you who don't think there's a difference, I think a little thought experiment will show you that you actually do.

What if all the middle schools in the country decided that 7th graders were no longer going to receive Sex Education, but instead were going to receive Sex Training? Imagine the homework assignments for that...

So there's the difference. The training one needs for work in EMS is minimal compared to the education one ought to have.

 

[MMiz]

I disagree. We need education and training. Education is associated with learning done in a classroom or school, whereas training is usually associated with learning and mastering a skill. In order to be a great EMT you need both a solid education and exceptional training.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

I disagree. We need education and training. Education is associated with learning done in a classroom or school, whereas training is usually associated with learning and mastering a skill. In order to be a great EMT you need both a solid education and exceptional training.

Yeah that's compatible with what I asserted in the OP. My point was that skill-set training is minimal compared to the clinical education we ought to have so that we can actually be proficient and competent in our skills. Any monkey can be shown how to intubate, but knowing when someone needs to be intubated and when they don't and why requires something else entirely.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

While i agree that Education is important, and should be a required trait in the field, i think the manner within which it is consistently discussed in this forum, takes away from the quality and appeal of the site. when so many forums turn into "get an education bashes", it diminishes the appeal to post comments/guestions.
Everyone has the right to be new, most people recognize the need for a college education. What is wrong with beginning a career, and getting my degree while working in the field? My paramedic Program is an A.S. program. When I finish the paramedic certificate portion, I will have 54 college credits, over half way there to an A.S degree. Do many employers not recognize the fact that you are working toward a college degree?
Most patients will never know nor be able to tell what sort of college education you hold.

 

[JPINFV]

Everyone has the right to be new, most people recognize the need for a college education. What is wrong with beginning a career, and getting my degree while working in the field? My paramedic Program is an A.S. program. When I finish the paramedic certificate portion, I will have 54 college credits, over half way there to an A.S degree. Do many employers not recognize the fact that you are working toward a college degree?
Most patients will never know nor be able to tell what sort of college education you hold.

You need the education before you start training. There's a reason why the first two years of medical school focus mostly on science (while also teaching the basics of medicine) and the rotations (where the science is first applied) after the education. Similarly, there's a reason why medical student orders have to be cosigned. Only following medical school are physicians licensed (either fully or under a limited 'resident' license) and able to fully write their own. Experience is built on of training, training is built on of education, and education is the base.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

You need the education before you start training. There's a reason why the first two years of medical school focus mostly on science (while also teaching the basics of medicine) and the rotations (where the science is first applied) after the education. Similarly, there's a reason why medical student orders have to be cosigned. Only following medical school are physicians licensed (either fully or under a limited 'resident' license) and able to fully write their own. Experience is built on of training, training is built on of education, and education is the base.

Does Paramedic school not count as education? You don't "need" history, upper level math classes, foreign language classes to do the skills required of paramedics, hince they are not required. I intend to pursue these goals, but in all seriousness, how much do you believe they effect patient care?

 

[Burlyskink]

Does Paramedic school not count as education? You don't "need" history, upper level math classes, foreign language classes to do the skills required of paramedics, hince they are not required. I intend to pursue these goals, but in all seriousness, how much do you believe they effect patient care?

What about A&P and classes actually oriented toward healthcare? Im not in medic school but as far as I know you do not learn things that those classes provide.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

What about A&P and classes actually oriented toward healthcare? Im not in medic school but as far as I know you do not learn things that those classes provide.

In my paramedic program, they give you the anatomy and phsyiology classes, In short paramedic class teaches you what you need to know to be a Paramedic(same as EMT school teaches you to be an EMT), A college education(if thats even the education this thread is reffering to) while desirable, i do not believe will play a large roll in your day to day duties as a paramedic. Your patints will most likely not know nor care what your college education details, as long as you provide competent, effectionate patient care, all of which can be leared in a reputable, accredited paremedic program.

 

[JPINFV]

How many paramedic schools require (either as a prereq or a part of the course) college level anatomy, physiology, chemistry, and physics (at a minimum mechanics)? I can easily find paramedic programs where the only requirment is a CPR card and an EMT-B certification and doesn't include those programs as a part of the program.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

How many paramedic schools require (either as a prereq or a part of the course) college level anatomy, physiology, chemistry, and physics (at a minimum mechanics)? I can easily find paramedic programs where the only requirment is a CPR card and an EMT-B certification and doesn't include those programs as a part of the program.

I do not know. My school offers a full college level anatomy physiology course, and chemistry and physiology (while not there own classes), are discussed as they are relevant to the skill set of a paramedic. I get college credit for my paramedic course, though i do recognize that many Paramedic schools require and often teach the bare minimum, turning out mass quantities of paramedics who do not adapt well into the field

 

[ResTech]

I believe heavily in more education for a more well rounded provider but at the same time I am also realistic. I see where Lifeguard is coming from. The day to day job of being a Paramedic consists of being in contact with a patient for an average of 20mins and delivering them to the hospital hopefully in better condition than you found them.... done deal.

The field is just that... the FIELD. Only so much can and should be done. We all know what the ultimate goal is... to get the patient to the hospital. You can spend all the time in the world taking microbiology and advanced math, but is it really gonna allow you to provide care different than a Paramedic who didn't? No, its not.

As Lifeguard said, a Paramedic program prepares you to be a Paramedic... not a physician.... its not Medical School. Pre-hospital care is meant to stabilize and relieve immediate pain and suffering... not to play wanna-be doctor.

 

[JPINFV]

I guess PAs, NPs, RNs, or RTs don't need education since they aren't doctors either then. Either that, or EMS really is simply "you call, we hall, that's all" and deserves the low pay since it really is just a glorified taxi service regardless of if it's 911 or IFT. EMS can be more, but 110 or 1000 hours of technical training won't achieve that.

 

[daedalus]

Attitudes like ResTechs are self limiting and will stunt your growth as a provider. "I only drive em to the ER".

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

Attitudes like ResTechs are self limiting and will stunt your growth as a provider. "I only drive em to the ER".

I believe I fully understand both views, but i do not think ResTechs views are self limiting. He acknowledges education is important but he realizes its place in the field. I am not trying in any way to promote the ambulance driver image, I just don't agree with some of the views about the essentials of a college education. If you were to call 911 you would expect a paramedic to come to your aid, not your run of the mill college student. If that paramedic has a college education, thats great, but will the patient ever know? I believe furthering ones general knowledge database is a great thing, good marketability to employers, though due to the nature of the service we render, not a predominant factor in our service
I guess I got into this thread due to a comment earlier. If am a young paramedic, actively pursuing a college degree, everything else aside do you honestly think that my care could or would be less adequate than, a degree holding colleague?

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

As Lifeguard said, a Paramedic program prepares you to be a Paramedic... not a physician.... its not Medical School. Pre-hospital care is meant to stabilize and relieve immediate pain and suffering... not to play wanna-be doctor.

Exactly. If you had a M.D in your ambulance, typical equiptment your ambulance carries, do you believe the vast majority of your calls would have a different outcome?

 

[JPINFV]

Exactly. If you had a M.D in your ambulance, typical equiptment your ambulance carries, do you believe the vast majority of your calls would have a different outcome?

If the ambulance only had a driver and a gurney, would the vast majority of the calls have a different outcome?

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

I guess PAs, NPs, RNs, or RTs don't need education since they aren't doctors either then. Either that, or EMS really is simply "you call, we hall, that's all" and deserves the low pay since it really is just a glorified taxi service regardless of if it's 911 or IFT. EMS can be more, but 110 or 1000 hours of technical training won't achieve that.

No, Paramedics need education, and they receive that education in paramedic school. Not that EMS is as simple as "you call we haul that's all", they do call and we do haul. We can and do provide Advanced Life Support, but isn't the ultimate goal still the same as an EMT-B, to stabilize and get the patient to definitive care at the hospital? now we do have considerably more resources, training, and education than the EMTB. While I really would love to see advancements in the field of prehospital emergency medicine, at this point in time, I just do not see holding a college degree, affecting patient care.
I actually do support prerequisites into Paramedic school, and into our field. But right now there are few, if any in most areas in place. So I do not see anything wrong with the path i have chose. I do not hold a college degree at this point, but I will, and degree or not, with the current scope of practice for the paramedic, I do not see the degree playing a large roll in the quality of my patient care.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

If the ambulance only had a driver and a gurney, would the vast majority of the calls have a different outcome?

Yes. transporting with only a gurney and driver would be the definition of you call we haul. The scenario you posted above is pretty much how EMS got its roots.
But we as Paramedics, have much more tools and resources than just a gurney, and use them to fullfill the job description. In general field paramedicine is short term care, not the same as nursing.

 

[JPINFV]

Yes. transporting with only a gurney and driver would be the definition of you call we haul. The scenario you posted above is pretty much how EMS got its roots.
But we as Paramedics, have much more tools and resources than just a gurney, and use them to fullfill the job description. In general field paramedicine is short term care, not the same as nursing.

The question presented was 'does a physician make a difference in the majority of the calls over a paramedic?' I'm simply presenting a similar question. Does having even an attendant make a difference in the majority of calls? Now the question is, do we educate and train ourselves for the majority of calls, or to be able to handle those rare calls where a patient is truly acutely ill?

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

The question presented was 'does a physician make a difference in the majority of the calls over a paramedic?' I'm simply presenting a similar question. Does having even an attendant make a difference in the majority of calls? Now the question is, do we educate and train ourselves for the majority of calls, or to be able to handle those rare calls where a patient is truly acutely ill?

Which is a good point. I believe we should strive for excellence in patient care, so yes we should train for the scenario where a patient is truly accurately ill(still not entirely seeing basic college education helping here). Now I ask you as a medic with your current SOPs, protocols, rules and regualtions what would you do differently for a patient with a commonly occuring illness that you may be able to fairly accurately predict in the field, as opposed to the obviously ill patient that can not possibly be diagnosed in the field, and may be hard to diagnose in the hospital setting. Ultimately would you treat a chronic bronchitis patient any different than a Fabry disease patient, in terms of prehospital care?