Volunteers?

[Veneficus]

No, I don't know what your credentials are. However you are lumping volunteers into one large category of undereducated care providers. That is an ignorant assumption

I actually know more educated volunteer providers than you have total members listed here in your agency.

Even more part-time paid providers with equal or higher credentials than everyone you have listed.

but out of the thousands if not tens of thousands of volunteer EMS providers in the US alone, even if every member of your unit was a physician it still wouldn't come out to 0.5%

That is basically zero.

 

[Rialaigh]

No, I don't know what your credentials are. However you are lumping volunteers into one large category of undereducated care providers. That is an ignorant assumption

I think, the basic assumption is, the average volunteer is much less educated then the average full time paid staff. This is a large category which is completely correct and is not ignorant at all.



Not to open another can of worms but do we really need to improve education of EMS as a whole, or do we just need to improve certain segments of it. For example hospitals have recently (or not so) found out that LPN's just flat out aren't worth paying, that it is better to have techs, and RN's. And the LPN Is an unneeded middle step.

What if we leave EMT-B where it currently is, or make it even easier to get by cutting out completely non essential stuff. And increase the paramedic curriculum by double.

I think you would have a hard time convincing me that an EMT basic can successfully manage a "non ALS" patient that a CPR certified transporter couldn't.

 

[abckidsmom]

I think, the basic assumption is, the average volunteer is much less educated then the average full time paid staff. This is a large category which is completely correct and is not ignorant at all.

Only of the biggest differences I see between a volunteer and a paid EMT is their ability to take control of a scene and manage the people in it. Education might be comparable, but that kind of behavior is learned through repetition, and most likely comes to people whose personality brings them to a career where that is what they do.

I know a volunteer paramedic who is a great guy, very smart, super dedicated to learning what he needs to know. I watched a little old lady run roughshod over him with her LOL weak and dizzy, woe is me babbling, "oh, I need to get dressed, I couldn't possibly leave the house in my bathrobe."

He's a good guy, a smart medic who definitely has the knowledge that matters, but in the practical application he lost it.

That is the difference.

 

[RocketMedic]

Marie, your department may be educated beyond the standard, but what level of service do you provide? Why stand against a paid department replacing your volunteers as primary responders?

 

[DrParasite]

I only go off what NJSFAC lobby tells me, so I freely admit I have no idea. I was under that impression based on how hard they fought the recent legislation to add regulation to vollies.

Good to know there is no difference. Glad I am wrong.

#1) never ever listen to anything the NJFAC lobby tells you. They speak only for themselves, not volunteer EMS in NJ (more and more agencies are leaving them as they realie they are completely fully of crap), not paid EMS in NJ, not and of the ALS providers, and not the DOH

#2) the regulations are about the ambulances, not the individual EMTs. and the regulations are similar, the biggest difference being 2 EMTs for a paid ambulance and 1 for a NJFAC ambulance (along with a First Aid certified driver). I don't agree with it, but it's not that critical (yes, totally for another thread).

Somehow I missed this, I'm fairly certain we're on the new 220 hour standard. Our real problem is the Comm College system can't add hours. If the cert says "169 hours" the college may only add a trivial amount on top of that. That being said, the education is practically free so they limit free hours. I welcome the addition of more hours.

I was going off what your state's office of EMS said in this publication: http://www.ncdhhs.gov/dhsr/ems/pdf/emt_1100.pdf

I do not buy the argument that volunteer agencies close down paid positions.

I do think that volunteer organizations prevent the expansion of paid service.

I agree to both parts

By not demanding that local funding go to EMS, Fire, Police, etc, you are perpetuating the culture that EMS service is really "nice to have" and not a requirement of society. There are places where EMS service is mandated of the government for its citizens. The US is not one of those places.

If you are so good at being a provider, why would you do it for free?

Is your time and efforts not valuable?

I agree that we should be demanding local funding go to EMS, but you will note, volunteer firefighters often have million dollar budgets, funded by taxes. and what's the budget of the American Red Cross? last I heard, they still accepted volunteers.

Volunteers have no stake in the game. At anytime they can walk away. Never to return and they lose nothing. Imagine if your internet service provider, your cell phone company, your water depatment, sewage department, or any other service provider you rely on could do that!

that's a crap argument. As an employee, I can walk away anytime. I can quit my job tomorrow, never to return. If I worked for the water department, I can quit and never return. The organization will still be there, and have a responsibility to do the job, even if the individual leaves.

Lights are off and it would cost me time and money to restore your power? Too bad, so sad, I am in this to feel good about myself, extra time in school or extreme economic loss is not what I am interested in. But I hold the same credentials as the other linemen!

A volunteer can choose not to miss the big play for their kid. A professional might lose their livelyhood choosing not to go to work to do that.

Just something to consider.

See above. People quit jobs all the time. They don't give you any notice. They just say "I quit" and you never see them again. sometimes they say "I quit" to work for your competitor. Or an employee can "call out sick" to go to a ball game, do stuff with family, or go out drinking with friends. You really think it doesn't happen?

 

[Veneficus]

that's a crap argument. As an employee, I can walk away anytime. I can quit my job tomorrow, never to return. If I worked for the water department, I can quit and never return. The organization will still be there, and have a responsibility to do the job, even if the individual leaves.

It is not a crap argument.

If you pay for a degree to work in a given industry, keep walking off jobs and see how many times you can do that before you wind up not being employable in that industry at least in that area.

Then after moving 5 or 6 times in a few years try to apply for a job in that same industry.

Or an employee can "call out sick" to go to a ball game, do stuff with family, or go out drinking with friends. You really think it doesn't happen?

I've done it myself. But there is not enough PTO to do it everytime a holiday or family plan comes up.

 

[EpiEMS]

I found a couple of interesting data points here: http://www.ems.gov/pdf/EMSWorkforceReport_June2008.pdf

See page 46 for some estimates of the volunteer EMS "labor force," if you will, size.

Page 58 for data on educational backgrounds of EMTs and medics. Note, if you will: "About half, 48.6 percent of EMTs and 54 percent of paramedics, had an associate or higher college degree." That's more than the population as a whole. Not that it shouldn't be 100% for EMS, but still...

Also consider pages 64 and 65. I think this is a notable datapoint:

Police officer wages (2005): given no (practically...) volunteer police officers
10th percentile: $13.05
50th percentile: $22.25
90th percentile: $33.81

Firefighter wages (2005): given 305,150 career FFs and 795,600 volunteer FFs (as of 2004 NFPA survey)
10th percentile: $15.83
50th percentile: $26.82
90th percentile: $42.85

EMS wages (2005, and yes, it aggregates EMTs, EMT-Is, and Medics): given 244,408 volunteers (approx. from LEADS survey data), about 196,000 full time
10th percentile: $7.99
50th percentile: $12.54
90th percentile: $21.18

Hope the summary stats help.

I'd like to see some real estimations of labor supply and labor demand for LEOs, FFs, and EMS providers, but I can't find any real econ literature...

 

[Veneficus]

"About half, 48.6 percent of EMTs and 54 percent of paramedics, had an associate or higher college degree." That's more than the population as a whole. Not that it shouldn't be 100% for EMS, but still...

I am very skeptical of these numbers.

I would also ask how many of these degrees are in a healthcare related field, and of the providers with healthcare degrees, how many of them are employed as a provider in addition to volunteering.

 

[EpiEMS]

I am very skeptical of these numbers.

I would also ask how many of these degrees are in a healthcare related field, and of the providers with healthcare degrees, how many of them are employed as a provider in addition to volunteering.

It does include AA, AS, and similar associates degree holders, so I think it's at least plausible -- something like 28% of Americans have a BA/BS or equivalent per the 2010 Census, so it's not totally outrageous.

Therein lies the question: are the degrees equally distributed among paid and volley? I would say probably not. However, I'd throw good money on saying that the highest degreed providers are probably volleys (I'm thinking MSN and masters' level PAs).

It's a shame there's so little data. If I want data on physicians or nurses, I can download gigabytes of it -- but EMS, I can barely find summary statistics.

 

[Mariemt]

Marie, your department may be educated beyond the standard, but what level of service do you provide? Why stand against a paid department replacing your volunteers as primary responders?

We vary depending on the nature of the call. We are a smaller community with an average of 500 calls per year. This includes hospital transfers but not mutual AID to surrounding communities.
We have 2 ambulances, the primary is scheduled call 24/7 with 3 people which may or may not include a paramedic on the schedule. However our paramedics all carry pagers and two way radios 24-7 and mass respond.
Many times our PCR reports say BLS, others they say ALS, it just depends on if medics respond or if scheduled.

We are a Volunteer call team.

I have nothing against paid providers at all. As a matter of fact, while looking for a way to volumteer my time, I didn't realize the ambulance team had volunteera call. I am originally from a large city where that just isn't the case.
There is a shortage of EMTs in our area and becoming a full time paid service is being discussed. We already bill for our services, nothing like my father was after his accident, but billing would have to increase a large % .
EMTS and Paramedics would have to also work other city related jobs while on call, ones they could leave on a moments notice.
This town can go several days without a call, then get 5 in town calls and 4 transfers calling out our second ambulance 2 to 3 times which we don't schedule call, we mass respond.
So problems arise with how do they pay EMTs and EMT-Ps when we lead mostly normal lives, go out for supper, sleep at home but just carry a pager?
If we start being paid for being on call, what about the ones who are on call, and actually rarely get paged out?
Do to the shifts I take, I am called out several times a week

What has been done is we are still considered a VOLUNTEER CALL department. Many times people will be on shift after shift and never get paged.
But while in the ambulance, we are getting paid. Not a lot mind you, some peoples checks were in the hundreds for the whole year last year.
I once asked if this made us not volunteers, and was then told that since we are restricted and unpaid with our pagers on, it is volunteer call.

 

[Bullets]

I think, the basic assumption is, the average volunteer is much less educated then the average full time paid staff. This is a large category which is completely correct and is not ignorant at all.

would think, but I'd bet you'd be wrong. At least here in NJ, volunteers don't pay for classes in most cases. Either their squad picks up the tab, the state pays for it or the education site doesn't charge. This is generally not the case with paid agencies. They aren't eligible for reimbursement from the state training find and employers aren't willing to pay for non required courses. When I go to EMS Today, my volunteer agency pays for it, not my job. So unless a EMT is willing to pay out of pocket the free education opportunities are limited and usually repetitively offered

 

[RocketMedic]

Marie, your debate was actually the focus of a court decision that said "yes, we have to pay these firefighters to wait in readiness". The nature of EMS is that we are either working or waiting.

Perhaps a hybrid public safety agency with police, fire and EMS would be suitable for your area?

 

[johnrsemt]

For volunteer EMS and Fire: Where I live there is a small town 7 miles away; with volunteer fire dept with EMT-B's (no transport capability) they are the only dept for 15 miles (over a mountain pass); with a wild land (fire and EMS runs) coverage area of 80X50 miles.
This town has less than 100 people in it; so they can't afford to pay anyone; neither can the next 4 towns. Yes during the day they use mutual response for anything, but the closest paid dept is from 5 to 30 miles away (depending which town you are talking about). So without volunteers you would have nothing for an area of 60X130 miles. even if all the small towns got together and paid for a dept they wouldn't have enough money to staff, or get equipment.
Most of the equipment is military surplus or 30-50 year old equipment that they keep running by people in town