Violent Encounter; Patient Abandonment?

[NPO]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/brian-timothy-kada-jr_n_4017234.html

I'm sure most of us have heard the story by now. How would you have reacted? Is there a legal defense to "abandon" your patient in this situation?

Would you have stayed or warded off the attacker?
- If the patient was stable (no life threatening injuries/conditions)
- If the patient was unstable (with life threatening injuries conditions)

Just looking for opinions here. Also, a citation if anyone has it, of a law that would protect you from abandonment in this case.

 

[CodeBru1984]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/brian-timothy-kada-jr_n_4017234.html

I'm sure most of us have heard the story by now. How would you have reacted? Is there a legal defense to "abandon" your patient in this situation?

Would you have stayed or warded off the attacker?
- If the patient was stable (no life threatening injuries/conditions)
- If the patient was unstable (with life threatening injuries conditions)

Just looking for opinions here. Also, a citation if anyone has it, of a law that would protect you from abandonment in this case.

It all comes down to scene safety. Scene becomes suddenly unsafe. Leave until it becomes safe again. I don't get paid enough to ward off any attackers.

 

[Medic Tim]

My number 1 priority is going home safe. My second is my partner. If something threatens either we retreat and return when safe . It may sound bad but that is the reality.

Provider safety trumps all.

 

[DrParasite]

they didn't abandon the patient; the scene became unsafe, and law enforcement would have been needed to secure it.

That being said, I probably wouldn't have left the back of the truck, if it meant leaving the patient strapped to the cot. the front, sure, and if I could have taken the patient with me somehow, absolutely.

I'm not going to ward off my attacker, but in this case, the attacker isn't the patient; it's a random person who carjacked the ambulance. If I cant' get the patient out, I'm probably going to stay buckled up and call dispatch with updates as to where I am so the cops can deal with this person. Not saying it's the smartest thing to do, but it's what I would do if i could do it safely.

 

[TheLocalMedic]

He reportedly had a shotgun... So yeah, take my ambulance if you want it! I'd probably yell, "hey, let me get my patient out of the back!" but if he doesn't slow down, then good luck and godspeed to that patient, because I'm out of there!

 

[MSDeltaFlt]

Scene safety literally means, in layman's terms, self preservation.

 

[MrJones]

Stay with the patient. Sometimes, doing the right thing means putting oneself in harms way.

 

[broken stretcher]

Stay with the patient. Sometimes, doing the right thing means putting oneself in harms way.

than you're a better man than me jones... you also must get paid more because i don't get paid enough to put my self in harms way.

 

[SMC]

Are you kidding me?!?!? Lol. The man had a shot gun !!! Are you really concerned about abandonment? This is a no brainer. Take the truck armed and crazy man.

 

[Medic Tim]

Stay with the patient. Sometimes, doing the right thing means putting oneself in harms way.

doing the right thing is getting yourself home (1st priority) and your partner (2nd). The pt is further down the list. By putting yourself in harms way you may also be putting your partner and others on scene in more danger.

 

[MrJones]

doing the right thing is getting yourself home (1st priority) and your partner (2nd). The pt is further down the list. By putting yourself in harms way you may also be putting your partner and others on scene in more danger.

Yes, I know that's your opinion and you're welcome to it. I happen to disagree.

 

[TransportJockey]

Dude is welcome to my truck. If I can get the patient out, fine,but if not me and my partner are the top priorities to get out of that unit!

 

[AtlasFlyer]

By arguing with a crazy guy with a shotgun, you're probably putting yourself and your PT in more harm's way than if you leave the PT in the truck and get out. Perhaps a quickly asked, "Can we take our patient with us?" would be appropriate, but I would not push the issue at ALL.

In that case, the armed guy probably doesn't really want to hurt anyone (if he did, he would have fired right away). Leaving the PT with him, notifying police and dispatch of what's happened will be the far safer thing for ALL involved. Will it be scary for the PT? Absolutely. Will it get him shot? Probably (hopefully) not. But you refusing to do what he says just might...

Calculated risk, for sure, and of course any event along these lines needs to be individually assessed during the situation. No one-size-fits all approach to what to do.

 

[BF2BC EMT]

Can't be serious with this title? abandonment?

 

[unleashedfury]

This falls back on scene safety.

It doesn't say HERO on my paycheck.

Its unfortunate but the patient comes after myself and my partner. if we are injured or dead, we do the patient no justice or service.

This is why some of the Hollywood shows like Chicago Fire make me nuts. They do all these crazy acts with fighting off gun men and similar acts. And the public perception makes it all the worse.

So is it abandonment nope. If I roll on scene and the scene becomes unsafe what do you do? You roll out!!! all of a sudden your truck becomes unsafe. Its just the same.

 

[EEEMMMTTT]

If I was him ? ...

I'd still leave the pt.... Scene safety !

 

[wanderingmedic]

the day I get taken to court because I "abandoned" a pt when some :censored: person holds a gun to my head, is the day I quit my job, find a house with a beach, grab a beer, and enroll in welfare because no one gives a rats anal aperture about anything important anymore, and neither should I.

unfortunately, I expect to be working for quite a bit longer.

 

[DT4EMS]

Well, I can tell you as a subject matter expert for both the NAEMT and the National EMS Management Association regarding violence against EMS providers... fleeing a violent encounter is NOT patient abandonment.

Your Duty to Act stops at peril....which is why you do not have to go into a HazMat scene or a flash flood without proper training and equipment to deal with that hazard.

Skip Kirkwood and I just presented on this in Vegas and we will cover it at EMS Today in February. I have also written a blog about this very subject.

The problem boils down to verbiage. There is a distinct difference between a "patient" and an attacker/aggressor. (I wrote about/and speak on this as well). That is where the sticking point for many remains. Once they define the difference...... there is never a question.

 

[AussieParamedicMan]

Stay with the patient. Sometimes, doing the right thing means putting oneself in harms way.

If you get injured, then more resources will be needed to care for you. If you die then thats one less person out there helping others.

 

[Handsome Robb]

I hope the patient is wearing the shoulder belts and not just the lap and leg belts on the gurney for this ride...

I agree that mine and my partner's safety are the two most important things, I honestly put my partner's safety above mine for the simple fact that I'm the paramedic on the truck, I'm responsible for anything and everything on it including my partner. Beyond that, I don't know how I'd live with myself if a decision I made ended in my partner getting hurt or even worse killed.

I'm willing to take risks at work. I'm sure that will change with time when I have a family. I really hope my girlfriend doesn't read this haha. One risk I'm not willing to take is going toe-to-toe with a man with a shotgun.