US vs. Canada Education Requirements

WolfmanHarris said:
Vent, agreed. Though sometimes I wonder if some of the LTC RN's are doing the rest of their profession a disservice by sharing titles.
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Do you know the expertise many LTC RNs have in wound care and medications that some ICU nurses do not? Time management? Quad programs for whole body function? Long term airways? TBI and stroke rehabilitation? RNs also start with the same basic level for entry either at 2 or 4 year degrees and build from there. They don't come out of school "counting" skills. They know what is expected at entry level and acquire more training and education as they go.

In many healthcare professions, a two year degree is called a "tech" or "assistant". Example: Physical Therapy Assistant (Therapist is now a doctorate level), Occupational Therapy Assistant (Therapist - Masters degree preferred). Even Physician's Assistant is just a mere Masters or 6 year degree.

Once you have a solid educational foundation, it can be expanded upon.
 
VentMedic said:
Do you know the expertise many LTC RNs have in wound care and medications that some ICU nurses do not? Time management? Quad programs for whole body function? Long term airways? TBI and stroke rehabilitation? RNs also start with the same basic level for entry either at 2 or 4 year degrees and build from there. They don't come out of school "counting" skills. They know what is expected at entry level and acquire more training and education as they go.

In many healthcare professions, a two year degree is called a "tech" or "assistant". Example: Physical Therapy Assistant (Therapist is now a doctorate level), Occupational Therapy Assistant (Therapist - Masters degree preferred). Even Physician's Assistant is just a mere Masters or 6 year degree.

Once you have a solid educational foundation, it can be expanded upon.
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Note the italics on "some." The internet is poor instrument for subtlety, in fact that's what got me into this mess. It was just trying for some sarcasm on some of the staff I have had the misfortune of dealing with at some very very bad long term care facilities. How about this, I'll just avoid poor attempts at wit from here on in?

And ya Sasha, that's me. Dropped the old awful screen name.
 
WolfmanHarris said:
You're right. Two years for EMT-Basic would be excessive. BLS here = Primary Care Paramedic with a scope that includes (with some variation service to service, but all of this is taught) 3 and 12 lead ECG interpretation, IV starts and maintenance, ASA, Glucagon, NTG, Salbutamol and Epi on top of the usual American BLS scope. Our 80-100 hour long EMR course is more in-line with EMT-Basic, though it's a level that is not used in EMS in Ontario.
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I'll have to disagree here. Going solely off of your post, the only difference between your 2 year medic and our 2 week basic skill wise is 3/12 leads and IVs. It's not even quite equal to an I.... it's somewhere in the middle.
 
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Linuss said:
I'll have to disagree here. Going solely off of your post, the only difference between your 2 year medic and our 2 week basic skill wise is 3/12 leads and IVs. It's not even quite equal to an I.... it's somewhere in the middle.
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But, their two year degreed Paramedic should know the medical terms for where they are sticking the IVs and may even know why.
 
VentMedic said:
But, their two year degreed Paramedic should know the medical terms for where they are sticking the IVs and may even know why.
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You mean it takes more than "Stick the sharp thing in the blue line on the arm to put drugs into the body"?!?!
 
Linuss said:
I'll have to disagree here. Going solely off of your post, the only difference between your 2 year medic and our 2 week basic skill wise is 3/12 leads and IVs. It's not even quite equal to an I.... it's somewhere in the middle.
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And two full semester credits of A&P, one of pharmacology, one of legal and ethical issues, one on human growth and development, two on psychology, two english credits (don't ask), two elective credits and the two full years of Patient Care theory and lab and our Ambulance operations class.
 
WolfmanHarris said:
And two full semester credits of A&P, one of pharmacology, one of legal and ethical issues, one on human growth and development, two on psychology, two english credits (don't ask), two elective credits and the two full years of Patient Care theory and lab and our Ambulance operations class.
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Did I not say "skill wise"?


I'm not debating that they have to get more educated to do the same things.
 
VentMedic said:
But, their two year degreed Paramedic should know the medical terms for where they are sticking the IVs and may even know why.
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And to be clear, we don't have degrees from this program. Universities grant degrees for three or four years, Community Colleges grant diplomas for two years and certificates for one year programs. Associates Degrees don't exist in Ontario.

Linuss: Oh in reference to skills please see above. I mentioned their limited relevance earlier, but Vent did a much better job arguing the point.
 
The same thing???

I'm not familiar with an I level as florida doesn't have one, but I was under the impression that the only difference was an I can start some IVs, give a little fluid and maybe a 4 lead.

When are we going to stop thinking of EMS in levels and just thinking of it as prehospital care???
 
WolfmanHarris said:
And to be clear, we don't have degrees from this program. Universities grant degrees for three or four years, Community Colleges grant diplomas for two years and certificates for one year programs. Associates Degrees don't exist in Ontario.

Linuss: Oh in reference to skills please see above. I mentioned their limited relevance earlier, but Vent did a much better job arguing the point.
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I was just correcting something that I viewed as a misconception... don't bite my neck off.
 
Sasha said:
The same thing???
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Considering he was stating that they can do ASA, nitro, glucose and albuterol that are "above" the US BLS level, I had to remind him that no, it's not above the level. Some states maybe, but not all.
 
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Linuss said:
Considering he was stating that they can do ASA, nitro, glucose and albuterol that are "above" the US BLS level, I had to remind him that no, it's not above the level. Some states maybe, but not all.
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It should be.
 
So... As Wolfman Harris suggested, I've spun this off as a new thread to alleviate confusion in the dialysis transport thread.


Linuss said:
I'll have to disagree here. Going solely off of your post, the only difference between your 2 year medic and our 2 week basic skill wise is 3/12 leads and IVs. It's not even quite equal to an I.... it's somewhere in the middle.
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Linuss,

If you mean the actual psycomotor skill... then yes, perhaps. HOWEVER... their students actually understand WHY things work. I've asked currently functioning medics the difference between left and right heart failure... and they look at me with blank stares.
 
Damn it, I don't need none of that thar ed-u-ma-kation stuffins to know when I gotta push that periwinkle box!
 
WolfmanHarris said:
And two full semester credits of A&P, one of pharmacology, one of legal and ethical issues, one on human growth and development, two on psychology, two english credits (don't ask), two elective credits and the two full years of Patient Care theory and lab and our Ambulance operations class.
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These classes are only the beginning of what should be required of the Paramedic at any level. Even the lack of expectation of those in EMT or Paramedic school to even have more than a GED or high school diploma has keep the text books written at a 10th grade or less level. Many can barely do simple math, have little reading comprehension or could not write a one page report on why they want to be an EMT(P) if they own life depended on it. Once I found out what it was like to teach nursing and RTs students, it is very difficult to teach a cert program for Paramedics. I sometimes make the mistake of using medical terminology or discussing actual disease processes. Sometimes I even required Paramedic students to tell me what a particular med does as it relates to a body system.

As you can see from some of the posts, microbiology and infection control is not a strong point in U.S. schools either at both levels. Yet, some wonder why hospitals are cautious about invasive procedures done in the prehospital environment and will change the IV. We have already banned Paramedic students from intubating at some of our hospitals and even IVs are getting scrutinized. When some students are asked why you clean a site before sticking their reply is "to get the dirt off". (???!!!!)
 
Here in Canada Ontario is the only province that has a 2 yr program for primary care paramedic. The average is 6 to 10 months. Alberta calls their primary care paramedics EMTs and that program is 6 months. Most of the other provinces go 10 months. In Alberta for advanced care paramedic it's 2 yrs. I would prefer if the rest of Canada did it the way Ontario does it.
 
fortsmithman said:
Here in Canada Ontario is the only province that has a 2 yr program for primary care paramedic. The average is 6 to 10 months. Alberta calls their primary care paramedics EMTs and that program is 6 months. Most of the other provinces go 10 months. In Alberta for advanced care paramedic it's 2 yrs. I would prefer if the rest of Canada did it the way Ontario does it.
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I just finished my EMT (PCP) and it took 10 months.
 
Jon said:
Linuss,

If you mean the actual psycomotor skill... then yes, perhaps. HOWEVER... their students actually understand WHY things work. I've asked currently functioning medics the difference between left and right heart failure... and they look at me with blank stares.
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Wasn't saying they didn't get more education, I just wanted to correct a misconception that I saw.
 
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