Universal health care peaking round the corner again

[Melbourne MICA]

Melbourne MICA just a matter of interest as far as health care in Aussie goes.
What Medical services do you get for your tax payers dollar?

I had started a post in the EMS Lounge about the US healthcare system not long before you did yours,
and later posted a link as to what we get for our dollar in NZ.
Just wanted to see the comparison.

Cheers Enjoynz

That's a good question and I think I could only answer it in part given I only have personal experience with soem of the services.

Still I'll think of as much as I can. Thsi will not be a text book interpretation of our medicare system - I maybe way off the mark in soem respects.

The system has two parts.

There are free or near free public services and rebates for services outside the public system. There is also the PBS system of course that covers prescription pharmaceuticals. There are also benefits in the welfare system covering health care areas that are arranged via the tax system. These are means tested.

* All care in an ED department of a public hospital free - this also inlcudes surgical and related services utilised as a result of the emergency. This may well include cardiac and other specialist care eg for AMI's.
* There are no fees when you walk in the door like the private ED's
* Medicare provides a rebate up to the scheduled fee - I don't know how this is worked out but it is a government organised listing of fees for all medical services. Doctors may choose to charge only the scheduled fee or go beyond it. But they will only receive the schedualed fee payment from the government (medicare levy) and the remainder from the patient. Thus you may visit a "Bulk Billing" doctor (GP) and pay nothing or go to another and get anywhere from about 50-85% back depending on the services provided.
*There is some dental cover (mainly for othodontic surgery type stuff I think) but this is hamstrung by waiting lists as are many elective and non emergency surgeries.
* If you are a pensioner/health care card holder you can use the PBS and pay peanuts for often incredibly expensive meds. eg our boy has ADHD so we get family carers allowance and PBS for his meds - Ritalin usually $50 - we pay $5.
* Some medical equipment purchase or hire is subsidised under medicare but I couldnt be very specific - I'm not sure exactly.

Medicare is Australia wide of course and is no different from state to state.

Ambulance is not covered under medicare but subscriptions are cheap about $100/year for a family -all services inlc air transport anywhere in Aus.

Thats a start - I'm sure ther's more.

MM

 

[yogakat]

just a question...who gets the privilege of deciding who is and is not worthy of receiving healthcare? the same people that said that women weren't capable of voting? the same people who said that certain minorities didn't deserve equal rights? partitioning off certain elements of society is a slippery slope...be careful. and remember, there are many exceptions to every rule. i know many highly educated (some PhDs) and hard working (40+ hours per week) people with no healthcare coverage because they can't afford it...they are one major illness/incident away from losing everything. not everyone without insurance abuses the system...and not everyone with insurance doesn't.

 

[Shishkabob]

just a question...who gets the privilege of deciding who is and is not worthy of receiving healthcare?

Me.


In all honesty, it should come down to one simple principle;
If you pay in, you can get. If you don't pay in, you're a leecher and don't deserve it.


IE; part time 16 y/o can get it... 40 y/o that just sits on his butt all day should not. Really, it's just that simple.

 

[Veneficus]

How do you figure? I don't think that's the case in countries that already have it.. Canada, England, Poland, just to name a few!

Poland does not have socialized healthcare.

 

[Veneficus]

Me.


In all honesty, it should come down to one simple principle;
If you pay in, you can get. If you don't pay in, you're a leecher and don't deserve it.


IE; part time 16 y/o can get it... 40 y/o that just sits on his butt all day should not. Really, it's just that simple.

Can you people hear yourselves?

You are medical providers? Maybe you can do medicine, nursing, or whatever “profession” you are in a favor and leave it?

You are picking out who is worthy of who should receive care? Tell me? Do you have a final solution for those unworthy of society in your 4th Reich?

News flash:

Many people who would love to have insurance who work hard do not have it. Not only that, they are not entitled to help under the law today. The guy working the grill full time down at McDs can’t afford it. The 145 people just layed off from Akron General Hospital can’t afford it. The people who had a job yesterday but not today cannot afford it. The lady who waits tables down at Denny’s for 30 years cannot afford health insurance, and she has to put up with all of our crap and a lot of stuff you’d probably quit over.

Perhaps all of you high society types should try looking a prostitute who had to give up more than you ever will to eat and pay rent and tell her she now has HIV? Watch all the hope drain from her face. Listen to her plead “my god what else do I have to give?” Maybe you should see the factory worker who makes $8 an hour talk with his wife over how they will pay for the braces for their kid to give them a better life. Maybe you should spend a day out in the field picking corn for a few $ under minimum wage to send to you family who you haven’t seen in ages in another country so they can eat. Worried about being deported and losing that income over a job you wouldn’t ever take.

There are not enough jobs in the world for everyone to make a middle class living. Last I heard it would take the resources of 7 planet Earths. The people who fall below that are no less than you. Now you will spout some crap about how people choose to be lazy. When you grow up in the hood as a female and you are expected to have sex by 12. When you go to a school that has 40 year old textbooks, when “bettering” yourself means a job as a nurses aid, if you can find the time to study for it with your substandard education (provided by those who don’t feel they should have to pay for you) between taking care of your 3 kids. Might I remind you your primary education unless you went to a private school was paid for people who may not have had kids, or whos kids were graduated, because they cared about everyone, not just themselves.

You people have a lot to say about “low lifes” but you have no idea what their life is like. You have a lot to say from up there on your pedestal, perhaps you don’t realize the fortune you have, that many others do not share in it. Then to turn around and deem them unworthy? Do you sit around and talk about how you would like to go help poor people in others countries for charity now? To make their lives a little better?

Guess what? They exist in the US. Selling drugs is a living for them, stealing gets them by. You probably have what you do because society decided it cares for people even though you obviously don’t. If it was pay to play how many EMS workers would have a job? How many nurses owe their salary to medicare/medicade? If we didn’t tax people you wouldn’t even have a fire department, and how often do you need them?

In the US personal responsibility is not a universal moral. (or there wouldn’t be laws for helmets, seatbelts, and smoking) The idea if you can pay you can have it is how many countries operate. I’ll bet most of you couldn’t even survive outside of your little town. But what is an American value is that “All men are created equal” Yes, I remember reading that somewhere. Something about inalienable rights. For supposedly “educated” people and “Gurus” you don’t seem very smart. For “experienced” people, your experience seems gravely limited.

Today I am ashamed to call you my peer. To borrow a phrase: “You have been measured, and have been found wanting.”

I truly hope one day you find yourself on the down and out side, so somebody can talk smack about how unworthy you are.

 

[karaya]

You are picking out who is worthy of who should receive care? Tell me? Do you have a final solution for those unworthy of society in your 4th Reich?

Tsk, tsk. Too bad... your 4th Reich remark just invoked Godwin's law.

You loose on this one.

 

[Shishkabob]

So Vene, tell me, people who contribute absolutely NOTHING to taxes should be able to reap the benefits? How does that make sense?


It's one thing to be a child who's parents pay taxes. But if you're a full grown adult and you don't pay taxes, you simply do not deserve the benefits of this country because you don't contribute to it.


I'm not saying only people that can afford health insurance should get it; I'm saying, and I'll make this easy on you, that if nationalized health care came a reality, ONLY THOSE THAT PAY TAXES SHOULD GET IT.






You have no idea on how my life was in the past 20 years. You don't know where I'm from, how I was raised, if I was in poverty or a rich kid. You don't know if I grew up in ghetto or the richest part of Manhattan. You don't know if my parents were drugees or alcoholics. Hell, you don't know if I'M a drugee or alcoholic. So please, don't make any such assumption, as you appear to be an ignorant fool when you do.



Don't you EVER dare tell me I don't care about people or my country. I joined the military at 18 to do my duty and got injured. Have you ever joined? I'm in EMS to help people, that doesn't mean I have to feel pity for those who refuse to help themselves.

 

[BossyCow]

I am for socialized medicine. I am also for socialized education. If we look at the Netherlands you can see an example of a country that has both and has done it well.

Those who say that socialized medicine takes away our choices are missing something. What 'choice' is available to the working poor? When the mill closes or you are injured and can't work?

My 20 YO son (who is insured) just recently developed a staph infection in his knee. Since the last time he was seen by a doctor was at the pediatric clinic, I called my physician for an appointment. I was told that the soonest they could get him seen would be in September, and if that wasn't sufficient, I should take him to the ER. Now, what if he wasn't insured? What happens when he finishes school and has to drop off our insurance?

To ask if the indigent, criminal and drug user is entitled to the same level of care as someone who works hard for their benefits.. I have to answer an unequivical yes. Basic human dignity is not a work earned benefit. It takes nothing away from me, my work ethic or my accomplisments to guarantee that all are treated for their illnesses. Perhaps it was my upbringing. But I believe that those with assets and resources have an obligation to assist those without. "And now abides faith, hope and charity, these three but the greatest of these is charity (1 Corinthians 13:13).”

 

[Veneficus]

Tsk, tsk. Too bad... your 4th Reich remark just invoked Godwin's law.

You loose on this one.

I would have made the comparison of Tamils in Sri Lanka, Treatment of the Irish by the British, The Russian's of the Ukranians, The Romans about Western Europeans, both sides in Israel and Palistine struggle, Tibetans and Chinese or any host of antagonists but I wanted to keep it simple. You can even find examples within a society, such as the Indian Caste system, or the Japanese feudal system.

From many of the comments I have seen, it doesn't appear more subtle examples would even be understood.

Anytime a subset of a populous gets villified, history points out it is the first step of persecution. Similar to referring to people as "animals" or "barbarians."

After the fact everyone sits around and wonders "How could that have happened?" "how could people get to that level?" The methods and results are reproducable.

When healthcare providers determine who is deserving based on their role in society, it is a very sad day.

 

[Shishkabob]

I'm sorry, but it's just stupid to give someone something that does not deserve it.

If you won't work to better yourself, why in the hell should I give up my money that I worked for, just so you can get help for a disease that was caused by your illicit drug use?



Bossy, I was brought up the same way as you: to give what you have. But that does NOT mean helping any and all without thought. I helped every other weekend at a soup kitchen in Detroit. I can tell you from experience some of the people who went there, went there not because they were homeless, but because it was free food. THEY don't deserve help.

 

[Sasha]

If you won't work to better yourself, why in the hell should I give up my money that I worked for, just so you can get help for a disease that was caused by your illicit drug use?

What about those who cannot work? What about those with diabetes, cancer, ALS?

And who are you to decide why someone does or does not deserve health care? It's "your money" until the government takes it away in taxes, it is no longer "Your money". Why, if I have no children, should I pay taxes for schools? If I don't use the public library, I should be taxed for it? If I never call 911, my taxes should go to supporting fire stations? Because in the long run it does a greater good.

I'm almost shocked and a little disgusted at some of the things being said on this thread.

 

[enjoynz]

Well I'm in my middle forties and sitting at home....so looks like I fit your category for a lazy person that doesn't deserve healthcare!
Oh hang on a minute....what about the taxes I've paid for the last 30 years while working!!!!!
In those 30 years I have never thought once that my taxes are wasted on those that don't work or pay taxes!.
Those taxes are to cover myself and my family, so when we need help, we get it!
What would happen if you were hit by a car at your next MVC....would you think there is my income gone, how am I going to get by now?
Who is going to pay for my rehabilitation? The fact that I'm never going to work again? Or do you just sue the person who hit you....for money they don't have either?

These systems in other countries have worked for a very long, long time....ok we have some long waiting lists for treatments at times....but at least we get on them.
There are things in health and education we still have to pay for...but at least our quality of life is better than many, because the Country works together and every family has a chance to better themselves!

Another thing....what if your brother or cousin was that obese smoking ETOH person....would you say...no he doesn't deserve healthcare?

Have a heart American and work together to bring your country back to the Proud Nation she once was!!!!
Defencing her is one thing....helping your fellow man is another!

Cheers Enjoynz

 

[Veneficus]

So Vene, tell me, people who contribute absolutely NOTHING to taxes should be able to reap the benefits? How does that make sense?.

Does that include people who get all of the tax they pay back? How about the people who get earned income credit, not only do they get it all back, they get extra on top of it. I do not benefit from that, I would wager neither do you. But if you do not give people who have nothing help, they will never be able to give back. Consider the sociology of family inheritence as pointed out by mycrofft in another post. It takes several generations for people to accumulate enough wealth to rise out of poverty. They may not have had much to begin with. It will take some more generations than others. Some people do not even know how to escape the poverty cycle. As I said, it is easy for people who have had opportunity, who recognize opportunity, to look at those without and deem them unworthy. There is just more to the circumstance of poverty than getting a job.

It's one thing to be a child who's parents pay taxes. But if you're a full grown adult and you don't pay taxes, you simply do not deserve the benefits of this country because you don't contribute to it.

Contributon is extremely subjective. Does a stay at home mom who does not have outside employment contribute less to society than say a 25 year old male who works 90 hours a week? What if that mom is on welfare? Does she not benefit society by attempting to properly raise her children?

I'm not saying only people that can afford health insurance should get it; I'm saying, and I'll make this easy on you, that if nationalized health care came a reality, ONLY THOSE THAT PAY TAXES SHOULD GET IT.

That sort of defeats the purpose of nationalized healthcare. Many college students do not pay taxes, should they be excluded? It is a complex world, simplicity does not do it justice. You are paying for medicade, both for disabled people and people without work, should those disabled be cut from the rolls too? I doubt you receive any benefit from medicade.

You have no idea on how my life was in the past 20 years. You don't know where I'm from, how I was raised, if I was in poverty or a rich kid. You don't know if I grew up in ghetto or the richest part of Manhattan. You don't know if my parents were drugees or alcoholics. Hell, you don't know if I'M a drugee or alcoholic.

Does it somehow matter? Neither your nor my history gives either of us the right to determine who is worthy in society and who isn't.I don't support socialized medicine because people deserve or don't. I support it because it is the only economically realistic way to maintain the health of a society as demonstrated around the world. If one citizen is entitled, then all should be entitled, based on citizenship not revenue generating ability.

Without health the amount of producers in society diminishes. That means us working people have to pay more for them since our society has decided we don't want corpses laying where they fall because they could not afford care. In all the numbers I have seen not put out by an insurance lobby over the last 8 years, socialized medicine will cost you less than you are paying now, for everyone to benefit.

So please, don't make any such assumption, as you appear to be an ignorant fool when you do.

There are many crazy, ignorant fools I wouldn't mind being grouped in with. Musashi is one of them, simplemindedness appears foolish to me.

Don't you EVER dare tell me I don't care about people or my country.

All the people or some of the people? How many would you leave to die who don't pay taxes? How many would you help pay from your own pocket for the betterment of society at large? At least twice in this post and 3 times in this thread you have said you don't support that. If you don't want me to think that way, don't say it.

I joined the military at 18 to do my duty and got injured. Have you ever joined?.

I am well aware of the psychological dogma of serving and sacrificing for country. Infact I remember in bootcamp the company commander telling us to lay down and pretend we were dead and how much such a sacrifice would mean while blasting a recording of America the beautiful.

Furthermore, if my knowledge of history serves me, the very word "soldier" comes from the coin that they were paid by the Romans for serving in the legion. It had nothing to do with loyalty to country outside of a profession in society. I also knew that little tidbit prior to enlisting. So when I "volunteered" aka signed an enlistment contract, I knew very well that any sacrifice I might endure was not only simply an occupational hazard, but was more for the whims of those who needed violent solutions to their problems than it would be for my country.

"The true nature of war is to serve itself" -Clausewitz.

I am sorry to tell you all the "leadership types" that always praise your sacrifice are paying you little more than lip service. If you doubt it look at veteren care since Korea, I think it is absolutely appaling and tremendously insulting, but you don't see society holding a protest and demanding better do you? Maybe a few people here and there. Are the homeless vets paying taxes? Should we add to the list tax payers and veterens? The point is you can't fairly determine who should be included or excluded.

Moreover, nowhere in my enlistment contract, written, or verbal responsibilities did military service confer upon me the authority to judge the value of a human being.

Don't be so quick to judge who is worthy and who is not. Because there is probably somebody higher in society with more influence than both of us together who could judge neither of us worthy and often do. You think for a second my health insurer gives a crap about me? You think they wouldn't deny me treatment in a heartbeat because they didn't think I was worth spending money on treatment for? Think it can't happen to you? Look at the spending for veterns health benefits compared to the costs over years. You really think the former CO of Walter Reed didn't know the conditions injured soldiers were in? Yea, he took the fall for it, but you honestly think if his budget was enough he would have allowed his troops to live like that?

have a look at this: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/77867/

look at how Nam vets were treated by the society they "sacrificed" for. Many of them were conscripted, they didn't "volunteer." I also very much doubt Vietnam was a threat to the security of the USA. I don't like what happened to them, but the tax paying society still doesn't seem to care. Go ahead and start asking republican represenatives to support a tax increase to help the wounded soldiers they "support and honor" and see where that gets you.

I'm in EMS to help people, that doesn't mean I have to feel pity for those who refuse to help themselves.

A small percentage compared to those who cannot help themselves. You don't beat a child who doesn't know how to tie a shoe for not tying it properly. You have to be better, guide, and use time and resources on them. Sure there are people who don't want to help themselves, but after many years of helping the poorest, I have found that those who don't want help are few, but like in many aspects, the minority are the ones who receive the most attention.

 

[BossyCow]

I'm sorry, but it's just stupid to give someone something that does not deserve it..

THEY don't deserve help

Deserve? Who doesn't deserve the right to medical care? I'm sorry, I don't see this as something you earn or deserve.

 

[enjoynz]

Defencing her is one thing....helping your fellow man is another!

Cheers Enjoynz

Sorry just saw my typo...That should have read...Defending her is one thing....helping your fellow man is another!

Veneficus has some very valid comments....I think we become very self centred in life and judgemental...sometimes we all need to sit back and have a good look at ourselves!

Enjoynz

 

[JonTullos]

What about those who cannot work? What about those with diabetes, cancer, ALS?

There are programs already out there for people who can not work (including my parents who are disabled - between them and my own experiences as a child I'm probably nearly an expert on such), some run by the government. Why do we need to expand? As I said, I am not comfortable with the government telling everyone (myself included) what doctor they have to see, what kind of care they can get, when they can get it and all that. That's my biggest problem with the whole thing. Would you be comfortable with the government telling you who you can and can't transport? How about who's able to get ALS and who's not (regardless of their need of such)? While some of this may seem far fetched, it's a real possibility under socialized medicine. No thank you.

The government has proven useless in so many areas. I don't trust it any further than I can throw the huge beast. Why make it bigger?

 

[ffemt8978]

The government has proven useless in so many areas. I don't trust it any further than I can throw the huge beast. Why make it bigger?

I agree. I can't think of a single government program that was designed to help the people and that a) actually worked, and b) actually did what it was supposed to.

 

[fortsmithman]

what doctor they have to see

I'm in Canada where we have socialized health care. The decision on what doctor to see is my own not the governments.

 

[Melbourne MICA]

So Vene, tell me, people who contribute absolutely NOTHING to taxes should be able to reap the benefits? How does that make sense?


It's one thing to be a child who's parents pay taxes. But if you're a full grown adult and you don't pay taxes, you simply do not deserve the benefits of this country because you don't contribute to it.


I'm not saying only people that can afford health insurance should get it; I'm saying, and I'll make this easy on you, that if nationalized health care came a reality, ONLY THOSE THAT PAY TAXES SHOULD GET IT.






You have no idea on how my life was in the past 20 years. You don't know where I'm from, how I was raised, if I was in poverty or a rich kid. You don't know if I grew up in ghetto or the richest part of Manhattan. You don't know if my parents were drugees or alcoholics. Hell, you don't know if I'M a drugee or alcoholic. So please, don't make any such assumption, as you appear to be an ignorant fool when you do.



Don't you EVER dare tell me I don't care about people or my country. I joined the military at 18 to do my duty and got injured. Have you ever joined? I'm in EMS to help people, that doesn't mean I have to feel pity for those who refuse to help themselves.

A very close friend of mine was an ambo. He wrecked his back on the job lifting a patient. Total disability. He can no longer work. His rehaibilitation took about four years or more and even now after about five surgeries countless physio sessions he is still a cripple physically.

He is only now getting some work - a few hours a week - his wife has had to work full time up until recently. He has not paid tax for years. He is on welfare. He can't work for more than a few hours a, because his back won't let him and b his welfare payments are linked to the hours he works and he pays no tax on that because he is under the tax threshold.

He was an ambo for around 25 years started when he was 16 as a cadet in South Australia.

He gets universal health coverage in this country whether he works or not and welfare assistance also. He is on a total disability pension.

The point is not so much about tax but rather about how complex and unique each individual persons situation is and why it is bad idea to lump people together on the basis on very narrow parameters.

The only issues that count with a health system is whether it is sustainable and whether it delivers the kind of health care each and every one of us would like for our loved ones.

And I still think provision of that care reflects our charity, our compassion, our civility, our moral compass and mirrors the depth, intelligence and interconnectedness of our society.

Systems that benefit the few and privileged do not, in my opinion.

MM

 

[BruceD]

...Then you've got things HIV/AIDS,...

By the time AIDS patients need medications, most of them go on disability due to the extreme costs of the medications required to treat their disease, which can easily exceed $1200 per month. So we are actually paying for these people already, just via a different system.

Of course that doesn't include the fact of a 40 hour work week

I may have misunderstood your post, but I don't know of any surgeon in any specialty that works less than 90 hours per week except the ones that are partially retired.

his would have cost me thousands out of pocket - Even on my wage I could not have afforded that. It cost me virtually nothing under universal coverage

I would believe that it cost you virtually nothing at the time, but how much money have you paid in taxes toward the care you received?
There's no such thing as a free service. Someone, somewhere (probably you) had to pay for it.

...Maybe you should see the factory worker who makes $8 an hour talk with his wife ...

I *have* to pick on you for this one. I want to see a factory worker who makes $8 an hour!! But that post *was* a bit of a foaming-at-the-mouth tirade wasn't it?

Deserve? Who doesn't deserve the right to medical care? I'm sorry, I don't see this as something you earn or deserve.

Sorry Bossy, don't hate me for saying this... I'm not sure you can claim something as a right that has to be provided by others, that would sort of be the equivalent of enslaving a segment of the population (medical workers). It would probably be more appropriate to call it a 'moral obligation'.

-----
As for me...
I don't believe that government run health care would be the panacea that some view it.
There is no way to provide all the medical care a society wants. There would be rationing and waits. There would have to be.

Would we get more for the money we already spend? I don't know... my experience with government has been that it is inefficient, wasteful, and expensive. I would be more supportive of universal health care if it wasn't.

However, I'm very disinclined to turn over such a huge segment of not only the economy, but our very health to them. Especially because once it begins, there will be no turning back, every deficiency within the system will be 'fixed' with more bureaucracy and every extra bureaucrat in the system is one more basically non-productive person sucking resources away from that which should go to treating patients.

The only basis I have for judging how the government would handle health care is by looking at how it has handled everything else.

Stay safe all and remember...
ALL of us want what is best for ourselves, our families, and our country. The disagreement is only about what the ideal method of achieving our common goals is.

-B