Throwing down the gauntlet

[thegreypilgrim]

What's the risk? The wealthiest people in the U.S. are international people. If you tax them too much, they'll just leave. Our corporate tax rate is also the second highest behind only Japan, the last time I checked.

This reminds me of a simple explanation to understanding our tax structure:

http://blueridgeskyline.com/humor/taxlaw.htm

The US is a massive economy, how can they afford to not do business with the US? Furthermore, where are they going to go? Other advanced nations have comparatively higher tax rates for the wealthy than we do. What else is left? The third world?

 

[Shishkabob]

The US is a massive economy, how can they afford to not do business with the US? Furthermore, where are they going to go? Other advanced nations have comparatively higher tax rates for the wealthy than we do. What else is left? The third world?

With the US is not the same as IN the US.


They'll move their HQs and most of their operations overseas.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Why do people constantly bring this up as if it would change my views on the matter? I'm against the mandate, regardless of Republican, Democrat, Independent, Green Party, whoever.

Difference? It passed under the Democrats, so they'll get the blame.


And, also again-- If a state wants to pass a law just like this, that's their decision. It, however, is NOT the federal governments position.

Because it's all rather convenient and rather disingenuous. There wouldn't be nearly the fervor about this were it to have bipartisan support. The GOP are the ones driving the frenzy about it, and if their intentions were to actually effect health care reform rather than merely deposing Obama we wouldn't have nearly the polarized opinions about it.

 

[Emma]

Linuss, if you ever come over this way you should come to school with me for a week and see what and who you're actually talking about.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

With the US is not the same as IN the US.


They'll move their HQs and most of their operations overseas.

Really? All their administrative personnel, high-powered executives, etc. are going to relocate? You can out-source skilled labor (not viable in long-term but you can do it) but not really your management and strategic decision makers.

Also, jobs are being outsourced to other developed nations not just third world. General Motors has moved a considerable amount of its operations to Canada because they have universal healthcare, thus relieving employers of the burden of administering health insurance to its employees.

 

[Shishkabob]

Linuss, if you ever come over this way you should come to school with me for a week and see what and who you're actually talking about.

Canada?

 

[Veneficus]

The US is a massive economy, how can they afford to not do business with the US? Furthermore, where are they going to go? Other advanced nations have comparatively higher tax rates for the wealthy than we do. What else is left? The third world?

I would like to point out the US has the lowest tax rate of all modern nations.

In order to protect wealth, those with it will stay in America. They will however invest their money in other places. That is why outsourcing became so popular.

Why pay a US worker $10 an hour when you could pay an Asian 10 cents for the same thing or better and $1 to ship it back to the US?

Better still, why not just be a distributor and then you only show the profit margin of what it cost you to get it vs. what you sell it for rather than the price to manufacture it and what you sell it for?

 

[the_negro_puppy]

Lol at the person who suggested that the U.S gives foreign aid to Aus, NZ and Scandinavian Countries. Are you serious or trolling? I really hope its the latter...

I am actually in the U.S and have been travelling here for a number of weeks. I think that the U.S is the extreme example of a capitalist society, where you can succeed and be mega rich, but also have a alrge amount of poverty and such a gap between the rich and poor. Until American psyche and culture changes, socialised healthcare etc will never be implemented.

Again using the Scandinavian countries, NZ, Aus etc as a model, it seems that capitalism with social aspects has the most success. One only has to look at the human development index, quality of life, crime levels etc of the developed countries to see that the countries such as Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Aus, NZ arguably have the right balance.

 

[Veneficus]

How about we get back on topic and not turn this into a Constitutional debate?

If I could just point out and ask your indulgence.

This is perhaps one of the most civil discussions on this matter I have ever seen. If it remains in control, why not let it continue?

Even though we don't all agree, many of the people in this discussion are really sharp and it is nice to have something smarter to talk about than what boots to buy or how many questions it took to pass the EMT test.

 

[Emma]

Canada?

Funny, but no.

DC. Generational poverty, inner city people and how they're trying to live with the current system and lack of health care we have now.

No one in poverty wants to stay there and keep living off the government. If you truly believe that about the majority of people getting government help/healthcare, then you need to make an appointment with reality.

Sorry, I just saw multiple digs at "poor people" on this thread and it bothers me. I'm in the middle of that every day, and I get irritated when people start waving around their ill informed solutions about welfare. I'm not a bleeding heart hippy-well, maybe I am but I had to drop that years ago just to survive going to school each day and dealing with the effects of poverty my kids bring to class.

 

[46Young]

The US is a massive economy, how can they afford to not do business with the US? Furthermore, where are they going to go? Other advanced nations have comparatively higher tax rates for the wealthy than we do. What else is left? The third world?

Largely due to our level of debt, China is already trying to relace the dollar as the world's standard:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

When we begin to default on our debts, which we're in real danger of doing with the current level of government spending, we can kiss the dollar standard goodbye, and with itm our standard of living. We can't print our way out of debt either. Just ask Weimar Germany among others. Citizens were using the currency as wallpaper.

Also, even if they do business here, they may show residence in another country, one that doesn't penalize the affluent. Since the wealthy pay the lion's share of federal taxes, having them leave will greatly reduce our income tax base.

 

[Veneficus]

Largely due to our level of debt, China is already trying to relace the dollar as the world's standard:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

When we begin to default on our debts, which we're in real danger of doing with the current level of government spending, we can kiss the dollar standard goodbye, and with itm our standard of living. We can't print our way out of debt either. Just ask Weimar Germany among others. Citizens were using the currency as wallpaper.

Also, even if they do business here, they may show residence in another country, one that doesn't penalize the affluent. Since the wealthy pay the lion's share of federal taxes, having them leave will greatly reduce our income tax base.

The wealthy will have a very hard, if it is even possible which I doubt, time finding any modern nation where they will pay less tax.

When it comes to foreign currency standards, it becomes important to see what is posturing and what is not.

I deal with foreign exchange rates everyday. While the dollar does fluctuate up and down, I have seen as much as a 66% loss of value in 3 months, it generally has less dramatic movements, which makes it somewhat predictable.

Also consider all nations try to undervalue their currency on purpose in order to make their exports more attractive.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Largely due to our level of debt, China is already trying to relace the dollar as the world's standard:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123780272456212885.html

When we begin to default on our debts, which we're in real danger of doing with the current level of government spending, we can kiss the dollar standard goodbye, and with itm our standard of living. We can't print our way out of debt either. Just ask Weimar Germany among others. Citizens were using the currency as wallpaper.

Stable democracies can run up debt accounting for sizable percentages of their GDP without risk of default or investor withdrawal. Belgium, for example has consistently existed with a debt exceeding 100% of their GDP yet it gets along just fine. Historically we have run up similar debts, and we're still here. Debt is a problem, but it's not an overwhelming or insurmountable problem, and you lower it by generating revenue not cutting back on expenditures. There's all sorts of talk about China and its potential lordship over us, but the reality is the world economies are all so entangled and dependent on one another such debtor relationships don't really exist at that level. The situation can be described thusly: if you owe the bank $10,000 you have a problem, but if you owe the bank $1 million the BANK has the problem.

Also, even if they do business here, they may show residence in another country, one that doesn't penalize the affluent. Since the wealthy pay the lion's share of federal taxes, having them leave will greatly reduce our income tax base.

There are some rather harsh laws on offshore tax shelters. Furthermore, like Vene says the US is already something of a tax haven for the rich, but outsourcing has become popular because of the expenses employers are burdened with here that don't exist in other advanced countries. Outsourcing to other developed/advanced countries occurs just as often as outsourcing to the third world. Consider the example of GM and moving its operations to Canada. GM has been satirized as a health insurance company that also manufactures cars because of the extraordinary expenditures it makes on employee benefits. Canadian businesses don't have that problem because they have universal health even though they pay slightly higher taxes.

 

[Veneficus]

Canadian businesses don't have that problem because they have universal health even though they pay slightly higher taxes.

There is a lot of wisdom in collecting health insurance premiums from as large as body as possible in order to help offset costs on those that money is being spent on for sickness. That was originally the plan and mandate of private health insurance.

However, as the greed factor set in, it was discovered more profit could be made taking money from only healthy people, not paying out for expenses, and they deferring those expenses to a third party.

It is strangely like convincing people to send you money for a service then expecting the US government to cover the cost of that service so you don't lose any money.

wait... That's exactly what it is!

and as a bonus, the government has to shell out the cash for those sick people that are denied anyway.

It is the perfect scam.

 

[46Young]

Vene and TGP, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Mods, please keep the thread open. It's really getting me thinking, and economics and politics are relevant to the thread, since we're talking about denying healthcare due to cost, that universal healthcare is supposed to be more sustainable, politics comes up, as does the U.S. constitution, etc. The thread is progressing, like a conversation, as threads and conversations often do.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Genetic research is eventually going to reach a point where they can nail down exactly what diseases you are predisposed to and at that point I think private systems will fall apart. Let's face it the whole point of insurance is to spread the risk among folks who may get sick and folks who won't get sick. If you can be reasonably certain that you won't get cancer then why would you get private insurance. This means that at some point the only way the system will continue to function is to make everybody buy into it regardless of need. I hate to admit it but I think a mandated state/national health system is an inevitability here in the states at some point. Have we reached that point yet, maybe but I don't think so.

 

[46Young]

I was just viewing another thread that had vene and bstone debating if it's really in the pt's best interest for us to do everything possible for them.

It made me think of a question:

In our current healthcare system, what can one do to protect their assests from being seized to pay medical bills? One of my greatest fears is to work all my life, delaying gratification to save and invest, pay off a home, save even more to build up a sizeable deferred comp account, just to have all that wealth snuffed out by a significant illness and subsequent treatment at the hospital. Every time I think about it I want to vomit. If there's no way to avoid that, I'll have to decide between losing everything I've ever worked for and get the treatment, or go off somewhere and shoot up a lethal dose of heroin, bolus a ton of insulin, or run my car in the garage with me in it.

 

[Veneficus]

I was just viewing another thread that had vene and bstone debating if it's really in the pt's best interest for us to do everything possible for them.

It made me think of a question:

In our current healthcare system, what can one do to protect their assests from being seized to pay medical bills? One of my greatest fears is to work all my life, delaying gratification to save and invest, pay off a home, save even more to build up a sizeable deferred comp account, just to have all that wealth snuffed out by a significant illness and subsequent treatment at the hospital. Every time I think about it I want to vomit. If there's no way to avoid that, I'll have to decide between losing everything I've ever worked for and get the treatment, or go off somewhere and shoot up a lethal dose of heroin, bolus a ton of insulin, or run my car in the garage with me in it.

If you figure it out, please let me know too.

 

[46Young]

If you figure it out, please let me know too.

Drug OD it is then. Maybe "go overboard" during a fishing trip or something. I think getting a pilot's license and ramming the aircraft into the side of a mountain would be pretty bad***. At least my wife and kids can keep our assets. I'm sure I'm not the first person to consider this.

 

[JPINFV]

At least my wife and kids can keep our assets. I'm sure I'm not the first person to consider this.

Also much easier to get it ruled an accident/pilot error, and thus death benefits.