The role of EMS in the rescue assignment

[Tigger]

Yes, which makes the work they do all the more impressive.

However i feel that two is the ideal number on a vehicle rescue

Kind of tough to be a heavy rescue with two people. Door pops? That's different. It's also not heavy rescue.

 

[DrParasite]

Kind of tough to be a heavy rescue with two people. Door pops? That's different. It's also not heavy rescue.

not at all. in fact, if you look at 90% of the rescue jobs, all you need is two people, because more often than not, two people are actually working hard, while you have others standing around. having 3 teams of 2 is a lot better than 6 people working at the same time with 3-4 people standing around looking pretty.

Also remember, you need an engine at every rescue scene, for both fire suppression, vehicle hazards and for initial stabilization. So it's not like you don't need the FD to be there, they just aren't performing the rescue.

In Newark, FD sends an engine, ladder, and rescue, so you have plenty of bodies standing around to help with lifting items and moving equipment. PD might also send a rescue unit if it's available. But the UMDNJ Rescue Crews are usually the people on the tools performing the rescue, and are typically the most qualified rescue personnel on the scene. Well, them an PD are tied; after all Newark PD's rescue crews are trained by the UMDNJ Rescue staff, and the two work very well together.

And while there are only 2 Rescue techs assigned to the Rescue truck at any given time, you also have field supervisors and ambulance staff who are cross trained for rescue who can gear up and assist if needed.

I believe this EMS agency has two heavy rescues, and also functions as either a truck company or RIT team at big fires http://carsrescue.org/

 

[Tigger]

So for a complex machine entrapment or high angle rope rescue call two people would be sufficient? It's great that there are more companies responding to increase manpower, but the most important part of a rescue company is the crew on it, and two people (no matter how experienced) are not enough to make up a heavy rescue. The truck might be big and have all the tools, but it is not a self contained rescue company since it relies on other units and agencies to make the operations actually work.

That is not to say that most rescue work is heavy rescue, or even that two people cannot do most rescue work, I agree that they can. I do not agree that they make up a heavy rescue unit however.

Maybe this is just arguing semantics, I guess being from the northeast I have a different idea of what a rescue company is. And Colorado for that matter.

 

[DrParasite]

So for a complex machine entrapment or high angle rope rescue call two people would be sufficient? It's great that there are more companies responding to increase manpower, but the most important part of a rescue company is the crew on it, and two people (no matter how experienced) are not enough to make up a heavy rescue. The truck might be big and have all the tools, but it is not a self contained rescue company since it relies on other units and agencies to make the operations actually work.

fair enough. please give examples of a fire department that will only sent a heavy rescue to a rescue assignment. no engines, no ladders, maybe a rescue chief, but that's it. please give department names and cite your sources.

I doubt you will find any

 

[rescue1]

But if EMS rescue is relient on the fire department to do their job, then why is EMS doing it in the first place?

 

[Tigger]

fair enough. please give examples of a fire department that will only sent a heavy rescue to a rescue assignment. no engines, no ladders, maybe a rescue chief, but that's it. please give department names and cite your sources.

I doubt you will find any

There aren't any, don't remember stating as such. Meanwhile, augmenting a rescue company with a truck company makes considerable sense seeing that truck companies are often tasked with being the "first due" to rescue calls. A truck company be definition is going to have the tools and manpower to assist with such tasks. Meanwhile tying up an ambulance crew to run rescue tools makes comparatively little sense given that the whole purpose of an an ambulance is to take the patient to the hospital, something that cannot be done with the crew cutting up the car. Using a supervisor defeats the purpose of having a supervisory person on scene. And dispatching an extra ambulance for manpower is a complete misuse of resources given how much more likely a medical call, something that the ambulance is you know, intended for, is to come in than an extrication call.

 

[DrParasite]

But if EMS rescue is relient on the fire department to do their job, then why is EMS doing it in the first place?

if EMS is reliant on the FD to do theri job, because the FD first responds to every life threatening calls, why is EMS doing it in the first place? Every rescue operation should get an engine and a rescue. they each have different jobs at a scene. there is no rule that says the rescue needs to come from the FD. in NYC for example, PD has a heavy rescue too. As long as they are staffed and equipped to do the job, it can be done.

Meanwhile tying up an ambulance crew to run rescue tools makes comparatively little sense given that the whole purpose of an an ambulance is to take the patient to the hospital, something that cannot be done with the crew cutting up the car.

exactly, which is why you need dedicated people on the rescue truck. In Newark's case, 2 are dedicated to the truck. Another guy can get off the ambulance and help, but once their patient is extricated, off to the ER you go, and back to your regular 2 (which is all you need is most entrapments).

Using a supervisor defeats the purpose of having a supervisory person on scene. And dispatching an extra ambulance for manpower is a complete misuse of resources given how much more likely a medical call, something that the ambulance is you know, intended for, is to come in than an extrication call.

As I said before, you can do it with 2. having an extra person helps, but if you train with 2, you can work with two. and 95% of the MVAs you only need 2 people on the rescue to handle the actual extrication.

You were the one who said "it is not a self contained rescue company since it relies on other units and agencies to make the operations actually work." fire Departments do this all the time, because the engine or truck supports the rescue company to make the operation wokr. Sorry tigger, those were your exact words, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Shishkabob]

But if EMS rescue is relient on the fire department to do their job, then why is EMS doing it in the first place?

You're right. Take the funding away from the FD and give it to EMS where it belongs, and we won't need FD on any of our calls that don't involve flames or HazMat.

 

[Tigger]

if EMS is reliant on the FD to do theri job, because the FD first responds to every life threatening calls, why is EMS doing it in the first place? Every rescue operation should get an engine and a rescue. they each have different jobs at a scene. there is no rule that says the rescue needs to come from the FD. in NYC for example, PD has a heavy rescue too. As long as they are staffed and equipped to do the job, it can be done.exactly, which is why you need dedicated people on the rescue truck. In Newark's case, 2 are dedicated to the truck. Another guy can get off the ambulance and help, but once their patient is extricated, off to the ER you go, and back to your regular 2 (which is all you need is most entrapments). As I said before, you can do it with 2. having an extra person helps, but if you train with 2, you can work with two. and 95% of the MVAs you only need 2 people on the rescue to handle the actual extrication.

You were the one who said "it is not a self contained rescue company since it relies on other units and agencies to make the operations actually work." fire Departments do this all the time, because the engine or truck supports the rescue company to make the operation wokr. Sorry tigger, those were your exact words, you can't have it both ways.

Fine, you win. I failed to to recognize that fact. However, two people on a big truck does not equal a heavy rescue company. It might work for most entrapments, but it does not work for actual heavy rescue operations. Pulling a guy here or guy there doesn't make up for it either. Then you you have four guys and one less ambulance. That totally works for multi pitch rope rescue. Oh wait...

But that's not what a rescue company is. It's experience and know how arriving on scene, with every member on board being able to manage the resources of other responding units. I don't doubt that the two person crews found in Jersey can do that. But there is only two of them, a properly staffed rescue with 4+ is tremendous force multiplier.

Let me rephrase my argument. A two person heavy rescue unit is not a heavy rescue company, it is two guys and a big truck. Using an ambulance crews to augment it's staffing is a poor use of resources given that ambulances should be running medical calls and little else. A fire department using a ladder company to augment it's rescue is a better use of resources considering that both share similar roles.

And for what it's worth, I completely support giving EMS crews the appropriate PPE and and training needed to be actively involved in patient care during the extrication. To me it makes more sense to have someone else run the tools and whatnot so once the patient is extricated the EMS crew can depart immediately.

 

[DrParasite]

I give up, you win. I'm not wasting my time, because it's no longer a discussion of what can be, it's you refusing to admit that it can and does happen, in major cities in the US.

Newark, New Orleans, Pittsburg, those are 3 big city paid departments; go and see what they do, since they all have EMS agencies that perform heavy rescue. and I'm pretty sure they get lots of rescue assignments a year.

Maybe you should contact those departments, and not only tell them that they aren't a heavy rescue company, but that EMS can't perform rescue well. I would love to hear their responses.

For full disclosure, I'm a trained firefighter, have worked on a career fire department that performed EMS & Rescue, have worked for a career EMS agency that performed EMS & Rescue, and am currently on a FD that handles Rescue for the town where I live.

Either way, I have explained what the role of EMS can be on rescue assignments, in both big city USA and small town volunteer world. If you are still refusing the see that, than that's on you, and I give up trying to open your eyes.