Teachers Administer Glucagon, Why Can't You?

[traumateam1]

Our local school district currently employs 3-4 of our EMTs and one FF. The EMT's are not teachers, but support staff like guidance counselors, administration, and safety officers. Part of their job duties are to respond to emergencies on the school campuses, and they have a fully stocked jump kit they bring with them.

They also administer prescription meds to the students that need them, and do have medical oversight. It's worked out very well for us in several ways (as evidenced by one of our cardiac arrest saves). They get there quick, start appropriate treatments, call for ALS if needed, get a good history (because they know the kids)

This is what they should do here... Our school district only has first aid attendants at the schools. I'm not too sure about the elementary levels (grade 1-5) but I know middle (6-8) and high schools (9-12) have level 2 first aid attendants. If anything like the unconscious diabetic kid happens, they can only assess and O2 and call for 9-11. The only time nurses are on school property is when they are administering shots, and even then when kids pass out from the sight of the needle or blood, they don't do anything.. just sit there and continue calling numbers.
Hence why I am for teachers being able to admin glucagon.

 

[BossyCow]

The diabetes activists are clearly supporting the training of non-medical personnel in the administration of glucagon. As a parent, I'd want my student's teachers to be trained in the administration of life-saving medication. It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to adminster Epi or glucagon.

But my issue with Vent's post is not that teachers shouldn't but the supposition that a teacher can be taught to do this adequately and to assess the need, but not an EMT B. If the skill can be taught adequately to someone with no medical experience at all beyond that CPR/FA class, it certainly can be taught to EMT Bs as an adjunct skill.

To imply that by virtue of 4+ years spent learning something other than EMS means a teacher can learn the skill better than an EMS worker offered the same training is elitist.

 

[VentMedic]

But my issue with Vent's post is not that teachers shouldn't but the supposition that a teacher can be taught to do this adequately and to assess the need, but not an EMT B. If the skill can be taught adequately to someone with no medical experience at all beyond that CPR/FA class, it certainly can be taught to EMT Bs as an adjunct skill.

To imply that by virtue of 4+ years spent learning something other than EMS means a teacher can learn the skill better than an EMS worker offered the same training is elitist.

Again, not all of the 2000 teachers in our system were instructed on this "skill".

But, since you mentioned it:

People with college education do have a better chance of picking up skills and KNOWLEDGE faster than those that have no formal education beyond high school. They have already demonstrated the discipline to go through 4 years of college. EMT-Bs do not always discipline themselves to advance by education but rather focus purely on another SKILL. States that continue to promote more certs for skills and not actual education are not helping the cause either. I believe Washington state falls into that category with their 6 - 7 certifications based on skills.

There are reasons for why there should be college prerequisites prior to taking EMT-B or Paramedic. The student will be able to develop some discipline for studying. Without these, you can expect thread after thread on the many forums about how hard the EMT class is.

It has already been shown on this thread that some who where opposed to teachers giving glucagon actually had little knowledge about pediatric diabetes even at a Paramedic level. I'm sure a few with EMT-B had even less knowledge but were still agruing it should only be their skill. So one might take that to be more of a "turf" thing in a place where egos should not come to play.

I'm sure by now MMiz has done his own research as an educator about pediatric diabetes in addition to whatever his school system and the parent give him.

Teachers in some areas are made aware the various disease processes and disabilities that the children have through inservices and continued training by RNs and RRTs involved in the education system. The teachers then may need to individualize access to different eduational activities the the children with medical needs. Parents are usually more than happy to give the teacher their own inservices and whatever information to see that their child is safe.

Times are changing with different health habits and medical science being able to save 23 week gestation babies. We have had to teach parents with very little education and high levels of education to provide for these babies if they don't grow up perfectly healthy. The school systems have had to become more educated also to accomondate these children.

EMS should be joining in to become more educated about this population and educating instead of fighting the educators, kids, parents, professional associations and other healthcare providers every step of the way because they think it is solely their turf.

Yes, EMT-Bs can learn this "skill" but don't make the kids wait for their arrival. Kids want to be active and not restrained to just an area of easy access for EMS.

As the links I posted earlier stated, many school systems have had this in place over 10 years.

These kids are not going away. Attitudes need to change or maybe we should just stop saving the children that aren't born "perfect". Maybe the kids with medical needs should just be home schooled for the sake of not having this argument and having people get their feelings hurt.

EMS also needs to change its attitude about education and stop bashing those who have it just because they don't. You would be surprised how easy some things become once you start advancing your education.

 

[firecoins]

People with college education do have a better chance of picking up skills and KNOWLEDGE faster than those that have no formal education beyond high school.

I originally took this course during my sneior year of high school. Passed with no problems. Adults many years out of college had difficulty because they were no longer adept at being in school. I had am advantage due to being a student. It isn't the level of education but rather how active a student one is.

They have already demonstrated the discipline to go through 4 years of college.EMT-Bs do not always discipline themselves to advance by education but rather focus purely on another SKILL.

Learning skills is a part of the educational process. Obviously there is more too it than just learning skills but it is still a part.

There are reasons for why there should be college prerequisites prior to taking EMT-B or Paramedic. The student will be able to develop some discipline for studying.

I agree wuth being an active student.

It has already been shown on this thread that some who where opposed to teachers giving glucagon actually had little knowledge about pediatric diabetes even at a Paramedic level. I'm sure a few with EMT-B had even less knowledge but were still agruing it should only be their skill.

If pediatric diabetes is so serious that untrained people should be taught this, than we can eliminate egos and teahc it to EMT-Bs also.

 

[VentMedic]

If pediatric diabetes is so serious that untrained people should be taught this, than we can eliminate egos and teahc it to EMT-Bs also.

I didn't say not to teach them. My quote:

Yes, EMT-Bs can learn this "skill" but don't make the kids wait for their arrival. Kids want to be active and not restrained to just an area of easy access for EMS.

My point was that people were jumping on the band wagon to say teachers shouldn't be doing this skill when they themselves did not know that much about the pathophysiology of pediatric diabetes. Essentially they too would only be treating a recipe of symptoms just as the teachers would be except the teachers were close by and had prior knowledge of the child's medical problems.

 

[zippyRN]

How are they getting away with this? They are not licensed medical professionals, they are not under Medical Control. Has this been investigated with the state DOH? They could be setting themselves up for major legal and liability troubles!

there is a however a patient specific direction for each of the students they may have to adminster it to - becasue it's for their known DM student population - the 'medical control' is the family doctor or endocrinologist who prescribes the student's meds ...

certainly from a right pondian prespective it would be the case that each student who may need it would need to provide the med in it;s original packagign with a correct pharmacy / dispensary label


vs. a protocol for EMS personnel to give it to anyone they have arrived at a working diagnosis of hypoglycaemia...

 

[zippyRN]

I still want to know the legal aspect of this? Glucagon is a prescribed medication that needs a Dr's over-site. We as Paramedics are extender of the MD's license and have over-site by the MD.
A teacher has no state license to administer a medication. So, did the school system find a Medical control Dr.? Did the state issue some kind of special medical license to teachers? These are all legal questions that I would like to know, for my own knowledge.

there is an existing PATIENT SPECIFIC direction to administer


it's no different helping grandma take her prescribed meds or giving prescribed meds to a toddler you are babysitting for.

the direction to adminster the medication exists becasue the med has been prescribed for the patient by an MD

vs the situation where EMS adminsiters drugs to an 'unknown'( to the doctor providing the direction to adminster) patient so the bar is somewhat higher

 

[zippyRN]

I know in Florida, for inhalers and epi-pens, this information is known by the teachers and the children have known scripts. Essentially the teachers are assisting the child in administering what they themselves or their parents would be giving in case of an emergency. I seriously doubt a teacher would be giving anything if the condition was not known.

exactly


EMS drug protocols are for 'unknown' patients these protocols are for a number of known patients whose own doctor ( whether the family doc or an endocrinologist if we are talking glucagon) has prescribed the med - here is the Direction to adminster - the training is aobut giving the med safely and effectively