Speeding, Alcohol Blamed In Fatal Ambulance Crash

[firetender]

I have to echo Guardian's call for compassion, noting that tragedy can befall anyone of us. We put ourselves in circumstances that a simple yes or no choice can lead to death, and there's not a one of us who doesn't privately agonize about some of our choices. If a choice was made to drink a beer close to running a call, that was a real bad choice.
And regards the profession. When you hear about a Dr. copping a feel from a patient do you automatically project that on to "those sleazy Doctors and their profession"?
I really don't know that people read about this and jump to conclusions about what hacks we are. Most people, like yourselves, can distinguish between an aberration and a common occurrence.
(Thirty years ago, stuff like this WAS more common. People knew about this locally. The only difference today is with the media EVERYBODY gets to know about every little isolated incident.)
YES, it's important that this individual faces the consequences of his (her?) actions and pays the price, but the incident indicates a personal, rather than professional failure.At times like this it's helpful to take a breath and wait for the full story to unfold. Condemnation simply has no value to anyone.

 

[Chimpie]

Guardian, I have to disagree with you as well. Putting aside the crash and the deaths that resulted from the crash, any emergency personnel who has anything over a .00 should not be on duty let alone being behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle, and another 'let alone', running L&S.

One, .09 is legally drunk, period.

Two, .09 will cause a driver to be impared. I can't believe you would think otherwise. I've read your post several times to make sure I've read it right. At what point (pun intended) do you feel that a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle is impared? And to follow up with another, at what point (same pun intended) would you stop a driver from getting behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle?

 

[VentMedic]

I am not trying to excuse anyone. I am trying to put this into proper perspective. The day your little 8 hour rule doesn't work and you come in with a .09 (without even knowing it), I hope they give you the electric chair.

If I EVER come into work with a 0.09 alcohol level I would hope they do give me the electric chair. I have not done so in 30 years and hope not to do so in the next 20 years. I respect the profession and myself too much. I do not drink 8 hours before work and will not drink at work. If I am working at 0600, there will not be any alcohol in my hand long before 2200. PERIOD.

When has drunk driving been fine?

How you not worked an accident scene which was alcohol related?

MADD does not make people chose the path they take when they get behind the wheel of a car knowing that they have been drinking. MADD is about educating the public hopefully before a tragic event happens. Unfortunately, they have so many tragic examples to help them make their point.

If alcohol is permitted where you work or if this is your personal practice, I am probably wasting my typing skills on you. There will always be excuses for those tolerant of this behavior in a pofession.

 

[Guardian]

If I am working at 0600, there will not be any alcohol in my hand long before 2200. PERIOD.

And you could very well have .09 left in your system and not even know it.

When has drunk driving been fine?

There was a time when policemen would drive drunks home as a courtesy after they wrecked. Hard to believe after all the lobbying from madd (a good thing), but true.

If alcohol is permitted where you work or if this is your personal practice, I am probably wasting my typing skills on you. There will always be excuses for those tolerant of this behavior in a pofession.

Alcohol is permitted off duty where I work.


There is no proof that drinking impaired her driving. Your heads have been filled with propaganda and you immediately assume that anyone with a hint of alcohol on them can’t operate a vehicle. Most people don’t feel or display anything at .09. There is a reason police give people field tests. This is because the charges are much higher if they can prove that someone was actually impaired.

 

[Guardian]

Two, .09 will cause a driver to be impared. I can't believe you would think otherwise. I've read your post several times to make sure I've read it right. At what point (pun intended) do you feel that a person's ability to operate a motor vehicle is impared? And to follow up with another, at what point (same pun intended) would you stop a driver from getting behind the wheel of an emergency vehicle?

Many experts actually disagree with you. They believe that .08 was created by overzealous lawmakers. Having seen people at .08 who weren't affected by alcohol at all, I agree with them. If it were up to me, alcohol would be illegal all together, along with other drugs. I work in ems and see what alcoholism does to people every day. With that said, it's amazing to me that you all are making her out to be an impaired driver without any conclusive proof.

 

[MMiz]

Many experts actually disagree with you. They believe that .08 was created by overzealous lawmakers. Having seen people at .08 who weren't affected by alcohol at all, I agree with them. If it were up to me, alcohol would be illegal all together, along with other drugs. I work in ems and see what alcoholism does to people every day. With that said, it's amazing to me that you all are making her out to be an impaired driver without any conclusive proof.

But shouldn't EMS be held to a higher standard than most people? Here we are arguing for more respect, but we want to be able to have some alcohol in our system before reporting to work?

One of my realities of becoming a teacher is that not only am I not allowed to drink while on the clock (even if I'm out having lunch at a conference, no where near the school), but I also shouldn't be seen drinking in an area where my students/parents may be. Last year we'd all drive 45 minutes away just to make sure that line was never crossed.

I'm one that believes alcohol, in moderation, isn't the biggest of our world's problems. I do believe that it isn't acceptable to report to work with alcohol in your system though. Just doesn't seem right.

 

[Guardian]

But shouldn't EMS be held to a higher standard than most people? Here we are arguing for more respect, but we want to be able to have some alcohol in our system before reporting to work?

One of my realities of becoming a teacher is that not only am I not allowed to drink while on the clock (even if I'm out having lunch at a conference, no where near the school), but I also shouldn't be seen drinking in an area where my students/parents may be. Last year we'd all drive 45 minutes away just to make sure that line was never crossed.

I'm one that believes alcohol, in moderation, isn't the biggest of our world's problems. I do believe that it isn't acceptable to report to work with alcohol in your system though. Just doesn't seem right.

I agree, but we should hold ourselves to that higher standard before we convict some young girl of murder. I don't see us holding ourselves to higher standards of any kind. We got all kinds of little whacker emts running around using ems as an excuse to be stupid. We tolerate it. Every time I try and raise the standards, people on this site try and discredit everything I say and call me an emt hater. Then some girl who has been affected by this culture does something stupid and you'll blame it on a coincidence. I'm the one trying to hold people to higher standards.

 

[MMiz]

No one has convicted anyone of anything. She'll have a trial, and then she'll have sentencing.

You really got me on the wrong day. I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their behavior.

1. She was transporting a DNR patient with lights on.
2. She was going 20 MPH over the speed limit at night.
3. She got in a MVC with another car while doing 1 & 2.
That alone would get her the charges she has.

4. She had .092 BAC while doing 1, 2, and 3

I blame poor judgement for her problems. I understand we're arguing the alcohol and BAC issue, but it appears as though she made a lot of mistakes along the way.

 

[triemal04]

Couple things for everyone to remember:

Alcohol effects everyone differently; I know for a fact that I can easily pass a field sobriety test with a BAC of .10 and that it takes a lot to get me to a .10 (not what it sounds like, trust meB)) and have watched someone with a BAC of .06 stand up to take the test and fall flat on her face after very few drinks. If you've been involved in EMS for any amount of time, you should know this unless you've never opened your eyes; how many times have you brought in someone who tested at .30 or higher but was still (relatively) conscious and speaking?

Nobody knows what the condition of the pt was. The DNR doesn't mean anything unless they were dead, or the pt requested that it be followed and wanted no care given. But more importantly, nobody knows what the condition of the pt was.

The driver had been drinking. At some point, she had drank and then decided that it was ok for her to go on a call and take the lives of a pt, and more importantly, her crew into her hands. Big mistake, and one that is unforgiveable to me. And should be to anyone who dares to call themselves an EMT.

Now, I don't care if people want to complain and say that this is just a symptom of a broken system; it is. But that doesn't change the fact that this idiot decided that it was ok to drive an ambulance after she had been drinking. I don't care if .09 is normal for her, I don't care if she showed no effects of alcohol, I don't even care if the car materialized in front of her; she was driving an ambulance after drinking. There is no, repeat no exscuse for that. Ever. To try and make one is to make a mockery out of everything that we do and everything that has been done to improve the image of EMS.

 

[Guardian]

You really got me on the wrong day. I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their behavior.

I blame poor judgement for her problems. I understand we're arguing the alcohol and BAC issue, but it appears as though she made a lot of mistakes along the way.

I am sick and tired of people not taking responsibility too. Why do we allow this whacker culture to persist, we need to take responsibility for this.

I see poor judgment everywhere, especially here on this site. I would agree that her poor judgment played a role in this, but I would hope you agree that our poor judgment also played a role in those two deaths. This is just another example that we see everywhere. People try and place blame on something minor to use it as a bandaide to cover up and prolong the real problem. This is what I'm sick and tired of seeing.

 

[Flight-LP]

Guardian - I too am disagreeing with ya. And I'm calling bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: on these statement's...........

"And you could very well have .09 left in your system and not even know it."

"Many experts actually disagree with you".

You think the states are bad, the FAA mandates (14 CFR 91.17) under a .04 BAC for pilots. So if your "industry experts" disagree, why hasn't the FAA made any changes? Why, if this is sooooo wrong, does a federal agency say otherwise? Why, because alcohol leads to BAD DECISIONS SUCH AS RUNNING FREAKIN' RED LIGHTS. Call it what you want, she killed those two people due to her gross negligent behavior. Stop sugar coating it people. She had no justification. Now she'll have some time to think about it. Hats off to the DA in this case. She get her just deserved.................................

 

[Ridryder911]

Rather than calling it "whacker" let's really call it what it was... irresponsibility. Numbers or not, volunteer or not- who cares? Sorry I do not participate in participating in the ingestion of alcohol if I am subject to call, have an up-coming shift, or if it is a choice that I might have refuse to go on duty, again being responsible.

Our profession should be the first to be intolerable to any alcohol consumption, no matter what the level reading maybe. We are one of the first ones to see the so called 'two drinks" to cause tragedies.

True, maybe it was NOT the alcohol. No matter what; at the end of the day, you still have dead victims from the cause of a reckless EVO EMT.

Again in comparison to other health care professions, we (EMS) take drinking and driving half heartily. Other health care professions and associations promote NO drunk driving and actually in comparison with my license as a RN to that of a Paramedic tolerance is accepted as a norm. I do not see many State EMS agencies monitoring if their registrants have DUI, DWI offenses like other health care professions do. Again, realizing what one does off duty may affect, what they do on duty and possibly a trend.

It used to be a rare occurrence to see about an EMS accident. Even when EVOC was a rarity. Now, it is a daily common event. We should examine and focus on why such events occur, and then how to regulate and prevent it from occurring again. One death is too many.. albeit a medic or a innocent victim.

R/r 911

 

[BossyCow]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the law, but if the legal BAC limit is .08 and your BAC is .09, you are over the legal limit - therefore you are LEGALLY drunk, regardless of whether or not you are displaying symptoms.

I do agree with you, Guardian, in that the whacker mentality may have played some role in this but it ultimately comes back to the fact that she made 3 consecutive bad choices. If she had chosen differently on any of these, this tragic incident may have never happened.

1) She made the choice to drink
2) She made the choice to respond and drive the ambulance after drinking
3) She made the choice to enter the intersection sans siren and possibly without exercising due care and regard for other vehicles

All of these are the allegations of the arresting officers. At this point none of it has been proven. I have zero tolerance for those who actually do these things, but lets wait and see if she actually did. Then we can light the torches, get the villagers all riled up and have at her.

 

[VentMedic]

Well Guardian, this guy only got a $20 fine. This one is almost laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. Like Rid mentioned in other posts, any other health professional and they would be looking for another line of work entirely or on a random and scheduled pee plan for the next several years with the licensing board.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515

Iowa EMT Allegedly Drives Ambulance Drunk

The Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa --

An emergency medical technician has been fired for allegedly driving an ambulance while intoxicated. Paul Engman, who worked for Midwest Ambulance Service of Iowa, is accused of arriving at work two hours early on June 22, smelling of alcohol and attempting to set up an intravenous fluid transfusion on himself, according to state records. He was fired the same day.

When questioned later by police, Engman allegedly said he set up the transfusion to eliminate some of the alcohol in his system, then changed his mind and decided not to follow through with the plan.

Security officers allegedly summoned the police after they saw Engman driving around the lot in an ambulance. Engman was cited for public intoxication, a misdemeanor offense.

Court records indicate the charge against Engman was dismissed pursuant to a plea agreement with Polk County prosecutors. As part of that agreement, Engman pleaded guilty to a charge of speeding or failure to stop and was fined $20.

At a recent hearing dealing with Engman's request for unemployment benefits, Engman testified that he didn't believe he was drunk when he arrived at work. Asked how much alcohol he had consumed, he said had "no idea" but had stopped drinking a few hours before reporting for work.

"I started probably at 10 p.m., and I finished drinking at midnight or 1 a.m.," he testified.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515

 

[Airwaygoddess]

That is such a pathetic and embarrassing example of the EMS profession. I don't care if this was thought to be funny at one time. Personal responsibility is a must, and management must take a stronger stand on the zero tolerance in the work place. I hope he also gets charged for stealing. <_<

 

[firecoins]

I am not reading every post.

No one should be drinking before responding to a call. Reguardless whether they are driving, teching or a third. I LOVE to drink and I refuse to do it with an upcoming shift. I do not care if .8 is conservative or not. Blood ETOH should .00

 

[Guardian]

I am not reading every post.

No one should be [.....]

you impress me more and more everyday.

 

[Guardian]

Well Guardian, this guy only got a $20 fine. This one is almost laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. Like Rid mentioned in other posts, any other health professional and they would be looking for another line of work entirely or on a random and scheduled pee plan for the next several years with the licensing board.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515

Iowa EMT Allegedly Drives Ambulance Drunk

The Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa --

An emergency medical technician has been fired for allegedly driving an ambulance while intoxicated. Paul Engman, who worked for Midwest Ambulance Service of Iowa, is accused of arriving at work two hours early on June 22, smelling of alcohol and attempting to set up an intravenous fluid transfusion on himself, according to state records. He was fired the same day.

When questioned later by police, Engman allegedly said he set up the transfusion to eliminate some of the alcohol in his system, then changed his mind and decided not to follow through with the plan.

Security officers allegedly summoned the police after they saw Engman driving around the lot in an ambulance. Engman was cited for public intoxication, a misdemeanor offense.



At a recent hearing dealing with Engman's request for unemployment benefits, Engman testified that he didn't believe he was drunk when he arrived at work. Asked how much alcohol he had consumed, he said had "no idea" but had stopped drinking a few hours before reporting for work.

"I started probably at 10 p.m., and I finished drinking at midnight or 1 a.m.," he testified.

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6515

I'm not even going to read all that, you're just wrong!

lol, I guess you found one we can all agree on. Get everyone together, light up the torches, and lets go hunting!

 

[VentMedic]

Regardless how the trial for the deaths of the two people turns out, alcohol and work do not mix. Again, I emphasize, these news articles were not a reflex hanging by the media. The initial news report was not judgmental.

Car, Ambulance Collide In Marshall Township; 2 Dead
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/14183368/detail.html

The later press releases came after almost a two month investigation. This young lady may have been an exceptionally good driver and EMT without the alcohol. Unfortunately whatever talents and future she will have in the medical profession may now be lost due to a day of really bad judgment.


Driver of fatal Pa. crash will be fired under zero-tolerance policy

http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/318318/

By Karen Kane
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Copyright 2007 P.G. Publishing Co.

EVANS CITY, Pa. — A Butler County ambulance driver who is charged with drunken driving and causing a fatal collision while on the job will be fired from the Cranberry Ambulance Company, a supervisor said.

Lynn Bourchier said Shanea Leigh Climo, 22, of Evans City, will soon be given notice that she will no longer be working as an emergency medical technician there — a position she had held since December 2006.

"Regardless of the criminal charges against her, we have a zero-tolerance policy. We cannot drink any alcohol 12 hours prior to the start of your shift. Any measurable alcohol level is unacceptable, regardless of the legal standards [for drunken driving,]" said Ms. Bourchier, ambulance company supervisor and director of the business office.

http://www.ems1.com/products/vehicles/articles/318318/
Quote from article

The crash was investigated by reconstructionists from the Northern Regional Police who determined that Ms. Climo had been traveling at about 70 mph in a 40 mph zone on Route 19 and had not activated her siren until about 2 seconds before the crash. The district attorney said the nature of the ambulance transport did not require Ms. Climo to exceed the speed limit.

Mr. Zappala said Ms. Climo had a blood alcohol level of about 0.092 when the crash happened, though the number registered at 0.07 at Allegheny General Hospital about an hour after the crash, which is just under the state's 0.08 threshold for drunken driving. Police determined her level was at 0.092 at the time of the crash.

Authorities have indicated they do not believe Ms. Climo had been drinking while working.

But, Ms. Bourchier said it's irrelevant because Ms. Climo broke the rules about consuming alcohol within 12 hours of the start of a shift.

Photos

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/slideshow/news/14515882/detail.html

 

[Guardian]

"Regardless of the criminal charges against her, we have a zero-tolerance policy. We cannot drink any alcohol 12 hours prior to the start of your shift. Any measurable alcohol level is unacceptable, regardless of the legal standards [for drunken driving," said Ms. Bourchier, ambulance company supervisor and director of the business office.


Wow, they fired her, that's a shocker.

I'm ashamed to be a human being right now. Our press sucks for sensationalizing a tragedy. I don't even need to go into all the reasons our legal system sucks. Above, the company says they fired her due to the zero-tolerance policy. That's funny, why did they wait a couple of months? I sure it had nothing to do with the publicity.

And finally, we suck for buying into all this crap. We keep ignoring the real problems and instead spend all of our time shoveling this stuff all day.