Skate Medic???

Jon

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Yesterday myself and WhackerDude <PARESCUEEMT - old partner> were out ice skating with my family - my dad is a ex-CPR instructor, and my brother is a Boy Scout First Aid Instructor. I was there to watch, as my balance isn't stellar, and I tend to FDGB on less slippery surfaces than Ice rinks. Well, maybe I'd have skated, but I can't find skates large enough ;) - I digress

So, I'm sitting there, watching the pre-teens make out on ice skates to bad Britney Spears Music (is there good Britney Spears Music??) when I notice a pile of people kneeling on the far end of the rink. I look around, and can't see PARESCUEEMT anywhere - he's got to be somewhere in the pile of people.

My dad skates over and says PARESCUEEMT needs me, and he's thinking transport. I get keys and go an get my little bag from the car. On my way, I let a rink employee know that I don't know whats going on, but my friend, an EMT is back there invsetigating, and I'll let them know if theres an "ecnalubma" on the way.

I go back to the back end of the rink and got the story:

14 year old Female. Fell, hit her head. Confirmed LOC by PARESCUEEMT - 30 seconds or less. Pt. insisted on standing and trying to walk it off, PARESCUEEMT didn't disagree, because he was seriously worried about a 2nd injury from another skater, as sevral seemed to think buzzing the group down on the ice was a cool idea. As soon as they got the Pt. off the ice she complained of loss of sight and hearing. I'm not sure if they were transient, or just partial, as the patient seemed to be able to see and hear me. PARESCUEEMT had one of her friends holding C-spine - poor kid was scared to death about screwing up.

Pt. complains of 7-9/10 pain in back of head. her neck hurts alot, as does her back.

Vitals - 132/84, pulse 100 S/R, resps 24-26 shallow (pt. very anxious and upset). Lungs CTA. After BLS arrived, pulse ox was good. On initial exam by PARESCDUE, R pupil was fixed and midposition, L reactive. on second exam, PEARLA.

Anyway - we confer and agree that BLS and ALS are needed, and someone states they already called. I send my dad to be sure, and he gives loss of sight and hearing as current events.

BLS crew rolls in 5-10 minutes later, and are rather confused (they were hit for an injured subject - if I'd had a pager I would have called immediatly after dispatch and upgraded to ALS), but agree when I metion the 30-second LOC that ALS is VERY warrented, and is enroute 30 seconds later. Medic gets there, and he confers with his doc, who leaves the local hospital vs Trauma Center descion to the family's preferred hospital, where they sometimes act as a truama center, and sometimes as an acute care clinc when you talk of their "trauma acceptance." it all very much depends on which doc is working, and what sort of day they are having (Ya'all know how that is).

My worry was I did not want to put a bird on standby bexcause A: then the medic will think that I'm more of an *** than he thinks I am, and it dosent help that I seem to always try to fly my "simple" patients - as I've had my hands smacked by more than one ED attending for brining "that" patient in,

So, what do we all think.
 

rescuecpt

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How far by ground was the hospital?
 

MassMedic1052

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Well.....My thoughts are....If you advocate on the patients behalf you will never be wrong and in your own thoughts should never be nervous about if you did the right thing or not.....Did she return to CAOx3?
 
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Jon

Jon

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Originally posted by rescuecpt@Dec 28 2004, 10:01 AM
How far by ground was the hospital?
7 minutes to closest (where ALS came from - his command did not want patient)
12-15 minutes to Family Prefrence ED (Don't know if they accepted or not)
45+ to two closest trauma centers - Crozer in Chester City or U Penn in Philly

So, if the bird will fly, the patient gets a helicopter ride.

if the bird don't fly, you crash the party at the local ED until the patient is stable with ABC's, then you run downtown (I had a ParaGod friend have to explain this to his MedComm Doc, with a bad weather system halfway through the regoin, that he was taking his unstable trauma pt, unresponsive, posturing, with clenched teeth to the local ED. the doc said she didn't want the pt. and he said he wasn't going downtown without a patent <read ET tube> airway. We have some AMAZING docs out here - some are amaizingly good, and a few are amazingly silly)

My gut feeling is that the family prefrence accepted, because it was just starting to snow, andthey might not have been able to fly.

Jon
 
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Jon

Jon

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Originally posted by MassMedic1052@Dec 28 2004, 10:03 AM
Well.....My thoughts are....If you advocate on the patients behalf you will never be wrong and in your own thoughts should never be nervous about if you did the right thing or not.....Did she return to CAOx3?
what I was saying is more along the lines of well, they might need a bird, but that's ALS's call, and why not leave the bird to them, rather than risk a ParaGod Fit that I stole their thunder by placing a bird on standby.


Jon
 

rescuecpt

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Here, anyone can call for the bird (through the PD)... usually it's highest ranking medical training. But technically, if you don't have ALS on scene, can your BLS call for the bird? Ours can. They come fully stocked with a lovely very experienced medic. Well, not always lovely.
 

PArescueEMT

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Originally posted by rescuecpt@Dec 28 2004, 02:57 PM
But technically, if you don't have ALS on scene, can your BLS call for the bird?

They come fully stocked with a lovely very experienced medic. Well, not always lovely.
keep yourself out of it...

Officially Neither BLS or ALS can call for a bird. In prder to get a bird, you have to talk with MedComm. They are the only ones officially alloud to call for a fly. I have heard of medics calling for a bird, then telling MedComm, but there is usually a damn good reason.
 

PArescueEMT

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Originally posted by MassMedic1052@Dec 28 2004, 11:03 AM
Did she return to CAOx3?
She never really left that. She had everything correct except the month.

Name Correct
Location: "I know that I'm at the Ice Line"
Time of Day: Night Time
Day: Sunday
Month: November
Year: 2004
Last Holiday: Christmas
President: Bush

So I would've given her CAOx4 Since she got everything but the month Correct.
 

MedicPrincess

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Originally posted by rescuecpt@Dec 28 2004, 01:57 PM
Here, anyone can call for the bird (through the PD)... usually it's highest ranking medical training. But technically, if you don't have ALS on scene, can your BLS call for the bird? Ours can. They come fully stocked with a lovely very experienced medic. Well, not always lovely.
We have the same here. Anybody can call for the helo if they feel it is needed. This included any PM on down the the first Vol. FF on scene who determines a Trauma Alert needs to be called, or the medical is bad enough they need to go to the big hospital, thus the helo flys.

When the FF calls for it, dispatch will always contact the Med Unit and see what they want to do (annoying as crap...but they have protocols too) and what their reason for wanting a bird is. And Always - with only ONE very notable exception and lets not get started about him- the PM will respond to dispatch with "Well what did the FF say?" They all trust the FF to know how to recognize when the helo is needed.
 

Luno

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If I read your account right, I would disagree with everyone here, with pupils MERL (Mid Equal Reactive to Light) vitals stable, no change over time, the only reason that I would even recommend ALS is the length of the transfer, if the local hospitals couldn't deal with intercranial injuries. If the transport was closer to 15 min to a trauma, this IMHO would be strictly BLS. I don't see the reason to activate airlift. But that's just my opinion.
 

rescuecpt

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Originally posted by Luno@Dec 28 2004, 10:32 PM
If I read your account right, I would disagree with everyone here, with pupils MERL (Mid Equal Reactive to Light) vitals stable, no change over time, the only reason that I would even recommend ALS is the length of the transfer, if the local hospitals couldn't deal with intercranial injuries. If the transport was closer to 15 min to a trauma, this IMHO would be strictly BLS. I don't see the reason to activate airlift. But that's just my opinion.
Potential for seizures secondary to head injury? That would be the excuse I would use when asked why I called for ALS. Although I'd already be on scene so calling for myself would be a little silly. HAHAHAHAHA.... oh yeah, gotta love it 0404 with no sleep!
 

ffemt8978

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The confirmed LOC is enough for us to consider the bird or ALS since it is one of the Big 4 that you can activate the Trauma System on.
 

PArescueEMT

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what about the Loss of Vision while on the ice, and the near loss of hearing throughout the incident. Oh yeah, 9/10 head pain, 8/10 neck pain, and 6/10 back pain? Is that not entering into consideration?

My first check, her Right pupil was fixed and dialated, her left was reactive and slightly sluggish.
 

Margaritaville

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Sorry Luno gotta disagree,

Definitely ALS. Because of her pain issue and some of the other vague ss & sx - I'd send her to the "spinal center".

I work in an area that sees a very large amount of spinal injuries, and she is suspect.

Better safe than sorry my friends. As far as using the helicopter - our criteria is different than most areas, so I have no opinion on that one.
 
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Jon

Jon

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Originally posted by rescuecpt@Dec 28 2004, 01:57 PM
Here, anyone can call for the bird (through the PD)... usually it's highest ranking medical training. But technically, if you don't have ALS on scene, can your BLS call for the bird? Ours can. They come fully stocked with a lovely very experienced medic. Well, not always lovely.
My county will call for a bird if an incoming unit requests it. It is, however, a gray area. Our flight services trust that we only call when we needed a bird yesterday. I also know that some birds have jumped Medicals because they can beat the medics by 5-10 minutes on a code, or more. I also know of BLS calling for ALS via Helo when all other ALS is out and Pt. is starting to crap out, with at least 15+ min. transfer to the closest ED, which happens to have a bird on the roof.


The other thing is that ANYONE can ask for a standby, which varies by service as to what they get, from bird in the air towards scene (once in incoming bad Weather I had a helicopter show up without being upgraded "we were in the area, now give us the patient so we can get out before we are grounded :rolleyes: ) usually the pilot checks weather and then they go and start the preflight, so one the go is ordered, skids off deck in 60secs.


I have seen medics do EVERYTHING per written protocol, and when enroute back to the garage to restock call the doc and say, oh, by the way, I sort of just flew an unconscious head injury out from xxx and yyy and he's going to zzz ED via XYZ Helo. Just thought you'd like to know.


Long story short - if they were STILL unconscious when I got there, and hadn't been able to stand up and walk off the ice with assistance, I personally would have gone to the lobby where I had service, and called 911, and stated unconscious after fall w/Head injury, EMT onscene, Cert 1234567 I want ALS and a bird, yesterday.

I knew that the patient was "stable" I had a conscious Pt, who was conversing appropriately and I thought that the pt's current condition would likely remain the same for 5 or 10 minutes, and I'd let someone with the "-P" and Chutzpah call for the bird.
 

rescuecpt

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You know, the more I think about it, "Skate Medic" probably staged the accident so he could talk to the little teeny bopper and be the hero. :lol:
 
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Jon

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Originally posted by rescuecpt@Dec 29 2004, 06:17 PM
You know, the more I think about it, "Skate Medic" probably staged the accident so he could talk to the little teeny bopper and be the hero. :lol:
REMEBER. That would be PARESCUEEMT, NOT ME!!!! I was ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RINK WHEN IT HAPPENED.



Jon
 

rescuecpt

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Originally posted by MedicStudentJon@Dec 29 2004, 06:26 PM
REMEBER. That would be PARESCUEEMT, NOT ME!!!! I was ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE RINK WHEN IT HAPPENED.



Jon
I know, that's exactly what I was saying. :)
 

Luno

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Potential for seizures secondary to head injury?
Rescuecpt, okay, I'll conceed that it could be a reason, it just wouldn't be mine
The confirmed LOC is enough for us to consider the bird or ALS since it is one of the Big 4 that you can activate the Trauma System on
ffemt, true, + LOC is an indicator, I wouldn't given the pt quick recovery
what about the Loss of Vision while on the ice, and the near loss of hearing throughout the incident. Oh yeah, 9/10 head pain, 8/10 neck pain, and 6/10 back pain? My first check, her Right pupil was fixed and dialated, her left was reactive and slightly sluggish.
PArescue, of course it does, especially the 9/10 head px, but not enough is told, i.e. point tender, etc... px in reaction to light, sound, I differed my opinion due to pt quick recovery, and the symptoms subsiding quickly, no significant change of vitals over time, I assume pt was CMSx4, being someone who has been "knocked out" the symptoms you discuss were fairly typical of a less severe concussion, had there been residual amnesia, etc... I may have picked a different route, but don't let my monday morning quarterbacking (yes, that's all this is) get to you.
Definitely ALS. Because of her pain issue and some of the other vague ss & sx - I'd send her to the "spinal center".
Margaritaville, okay, I'll bite, understand the px 2* to trauma, but if it was, she should of been kept on "ice" until proper c-spine precautions are met, there was no mention of point tenderness, lack of circulation/motor/sensation in extremities, etc... And as far as I am familiar with, even spinal compromise is BLS, unless it affects Resp/Cardiac/Circulatory systems. While we may differ on "field analysis" spinal precautions are always a safe bet.
I knew that the patient was "stable" I had a conscious Pt, who was conversing appropriately and I thought that the pt's current condition would likely remain the same for 5 or 10 minutes
Medicstudjon (yes I shortened it, you can thank me later) I think this is the key here, as to why the bird wasn't needed, as well as ALS, pt was, if I am reading the account right, stable, i.e. BLS, but you were right to stay on the side of caution.
Luke
 

rescuecpt

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Originally posted by Luno@Dec 29 2004, 08:39 PM
Potential for seizures secondary to head injury?
Rescuecpt, okay, I'll conceed that it could be a reason, it just wouldn't be mine
IMO, any head injury which include LOC and other neurologic defecits is ALS. Seizures was just a backup bs answer if head injury with LOC and neurologic defecits isn't enough to get ALS. :)
 
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