Self protection question

[John E]

hmmm...

1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...

John E.

Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...

 

[TomB]

1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...

John E.

Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...

They need to purchase Die Less Often - Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife, and Empty Hand by Gabe Suarez and Dog Brothers Martial Arts.

 

[John E]

Apparently my point wasn't as obvious...

as it could have been.

Another person posted some stuff about how he/she carries a gun while working on an ambulance and then tried to rationalise their actions. When they got called on the potential danger of carrying a gun while working on an ambulance, they made the following claim, "Anyone that thinks that someone could get a hold of my or a cops gun easily never watched or took a weapon retention course, keeping in control of your weapon is not that hard with just class room teaching on how to do so." Which is of course, patently absurd on it's face. Now I'm just guessing here, but I'd bet that's pretty much what those cops that were killed with their own weapons probably thought too.

EMT's and Paramedics fix people who have been shot, they're not supposed to be the ones doing the shooting.

John E.

 

[para82frame]

1 in 5 police officers killed were shot with either their own or their partner's weapon according to data provided by the The National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center. Guess all of them failed that weapon retention class...

John E.

Note to self, stay out of ambulances in North Dakota...

1 in 5? I am going to call bovine scat. The FBI puts the number closer to 1 in 28, in other words 2 cops where murdered with there own gun in 2007. To put this in perspective, 4 were murdered with there own car in the same time period.

 

[EMTCop86]

1 in 5? I am going to call bovine scat. The FBI puts the number closer to 1 in 28, in other words 2 cops where murdered with there own gun in 2007. To put this in perspective, 4 were murdered with there own car in the same time period.

Please post a link to where you read that the FBI said 1 in 28. I found an article confirming what John said but can not find one confirming what you said. Not saying your wrong just want to see where you read it from.

...It is a scenario that, while not commonplace, happens with enough frequency to alarm law enforcement professionals nationwide. Last year, 10 police officers were shot and killed in the United States after a suspect managed to get control of an officer’s weapon. Nearly one in five officers killed as part of a crime last year were shot with their own (or a partner’s) weapon, according to the National Center for Law Enforcement Technology - the highest number of such deaths in 18 years... http://www.gothamgazette.com/article/crime/20040916/4/1119

 

[para82frame]

http://www.policeone.com/news/16945...minary-statistics-for-officers-killed-in-2007

A breakdown of weapons used in these slayings revealed that firearms were used in the majority of incidents. Of the 55 officers killed with firearms, 38 were killed with handguns, nine with shotguns, and eight with rifles. Four officers were killed with vehicles.

At the time they were killed, 35 law enforcement officers were wearing body armor. Eleven officers fired their weapons, and 14 of the slain law enforcement officers attempted to fire their weapons. Four officers had their weapons stolen, and two officers were slain with their own weapons.

1 out of 27 =/= 1 out of 5

 

[TomB]

Anyone who thinks a firearm will protect them from a surprise attack within 21 feet is delusional. Usually the "21 foot" rule is used with regard to an edged weapon attack, but the basic premise is the same. If you're closer than 21 feet from your attacker, you will not have sufficient time to draw your weapon before s/he closes the gap. Weapon retention classes help in a life and death struggle, but you have to be really REALLY good to fight for your life and retain a firearm at the same time. You might be better off engaging hand to hand in the first place.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2006/march2006/mar06leb.htm

"The 21-foot rule, a dogma of law enforcement training, has held that at a distance closer than 21 feet, a suspect with an edged weapon in hand could stab an officer before that officer could fire two shots. However, one researcher found that an individual can cross 30 feet in 2 seconds and suggested that the person could travel 70 yards before succumbing to injuries created by an officer’s firearm.14 According to the FBI, “There is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed.”15

This suggests that 21 feet is an insufficient safety zone during an edged-weapon encounter. Unlike shooting a firearm, lashing out with an edged weapon is a primitive, instinctive action that a subject can accomplish in that 10- to 15-second window. At the beginning of the 20th century while conducting operations in the Philippines, members of the U.S. Marine Corps found that insurgents, although fatally wounded in the chest, still could move forward and issue a final blow from their edged weapons, seriously wounding or killing Marines. These experiences support the FBI data that even after being mortally wounded, a suspect with a knife still can inflict injury or death to an officer."

 

[chocchipsmom]

I own guns. I believe in and support the right to keep and bear arms. I also believe I have a right to free speech. Neither of these rights overides the responsibility of me to use my brain to determine when is an appropriate time to exercise these rights. Carrying a concealed weapon while on duty in an ambulance is the equivilent to crying fire in a crowded theatre. The resulting danger and potential for harm to the innocent and uninvolved far outweighs the need to exercise my 'rights'.

I too must agree with Bossy on this. Also, our sate prohibits "weapons" on ambulances unless you are an LEO, AND on duty as such. Besides, there are many items on board that an be used.

I work in a rural county, but that doesn't mean we don't see our share of violence. I have been assaulted by patients, and able to protect myself and my partner, without a firearm.

 

[Mongoose]

Who honestly believes they will actually have time to deploy a weapon when they are in as close proximity to the pt as they are? Coming from law enforcement and a military background (went 4F/medically disqualified, long story, but that's how I ended up in EMS) it was unnerving to get within two body-lengths of a person requiring emergency attention. Even at that distance you don't really have time to properly deploy a handgun, even if it is at the optimal place on your hip/waist/shoulder/whatever. Basically that distance gives you enough time to evade an assault, creating the time to deploy your self defense mechanism.

EMS example: pt recently arrested, DFO's (fake or not), LE removes pt from restraints/cuffs to assess ABC's/start cpr. When you arrive you don't assess from 12ft away, you assess while kneeling/leaning over the patient. You are within a foot away, your torso is exposed, and both hands are occupied getting a BP, auscultating lung sounds, checking pulse, whathaveyou. During the assessment the pt comes to. Any pt in custody worth his salt will wait until you are the most vulnerable, let's say, kneeling at his right side, auscultating left lung sounds. Pt lunges, be it with a concealed blade he had, or a rock he grabs, or even a hand with an insanely strong, adrenaline (or other substance) fueled grip. "Oh wait please while I withdraw my knife, unfold it, and grip it properly." or "Excuse me but I need to unbutton the snap on my holster, withdraw my handgun which extends my arms seven inches, and maneuver it to point at you." Don't even get me started with, "STOP! Or I'll trauma shear your A--!!!!" Don't think so. By then you're gonna be bleeding, or about to bleed from your own weapon. (There is no such thing as a 100% secure draw) It would be pretty embarassing to get stabbed by your own knife on scene in front of everyone while trying to play the EMS bada--.

Unfortunately in these days of ambulance chasers, lawsuits, and the myriad of use-of-force laws the all around safest answer you have is to block and retreat, if you can. As was mentioned previously in this post EMS personnel are not even granted the same self-defense privileges that the ordinary citizen is. To be fair, the law does apply to EMS and citizens equally, however the level of legal scrutiny gives us a distinct disadvantage. LE is trained to control the threat, and retreat if necessary. Military is taught to neutralize the threat (though that is becoming heavily bureaucratized in and of itself). That's part of their job, just as being safe on scene is a part of ours. As was also mentioned previously, "EMT kills patient" is not a good headline. Even "EMT kills patient in self-defense" is not a good headline. As I understand it citizens (and theoretically EMS personnel) are allowed to escalate the level of force by one level in attempts to subdue an assailant. Seeing as that could theoretically lead to the death of the other, both of those above headlines are very possible.

Following the advice given to me, preempt as much of the threat as possible by becoming an EMS brick until the scene is as safe as humanly possible! Trust me I'm still learning all this, I'm a rookie, but just this morning I had an ETOH pt w/a stab wound to his right shoulder throw a left at me. I was able to dodge it and pin his arm across his chest while I got my feet under me. Then I stood up and backed away.

(and for the record I am a proud gun owner/carrier/advocate and have citation awards in tactical pistol and rifle, working on tactical shotgun. Originally from Washington State and moving back there in May, glad to see an ally BossyCow!!!)

 

[EMTCop86]

http://www.policeone.com/news/16945...minary-statistics-for-officers-killed-in-2007

1 out of 27 =/= 1 out of 5

Thank you.

 

[fortsmithman]

I googled national center for law enforcement technology The organization I got has a similar name its called the national law enforcement and corrections technology center. If the reporter who wrote that article got that wrong then what other stuff did the reporter get wrong.

 

[EMTCop86]

I googled national center for law enforcement technology The organization I got has a similar name its called the national law enforcement and corrections technology center. If the reporter who wrote that article got that wrong then what other stuff did the reporter get wrong.

I don't think he got it wrong the article was from 2004 and he was talking about the stats from 2003. The one Para is talking about is from 2007.

 

[para82frame]

I don't think he got it wrong the article was from 2004 and he was talking about the stats from 2003. The one Para is talking about is from 2007.

But do you really think that the stats went from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 in just 4 years?

Also, if you use a source that is also trying to sell you something, you need to take the statistics with a grain of salt.

 

[EMTCop86]

But do you really think that the stats went from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 in just 4 years?

Also, if you use a source that is also trying to sell you something, you need to take the statistics with a grain of salt.

I didn't say it did, I was stating what I read. Who knows if any of these statistics are accurate. However with advances in training and better retention holsters I do believe such a number could dramatically change. Whether the number changed from 1 in 5 to 1 in 27 is questionable it is possible.

 

[artman17847]

this reminds of a very scary call i had many years ago. I was working for a private service doing transports. We had just finished taking a pt. home and were sitting in the rig waiting to copy the next run. Out of nowhere this guy sticks a gun through the open drivers side window and puts it to the head of my partner. My partner who was Veitnam vet clamly says " I didn't do two tours in Veitnam to die like this!" He quickly throws the door open hitting the guy in the head and chest and knocking the gun out of his hand. He then jumps out and starts to beat the crap out this guy. Meanwhile i was on the radio calling for the PD. Cops were there in what seemed like seconds. Turns out the guy was looking for drugs.

Ever since that day I have always been very weary of my surroundings.

But I have never carried anything to defend myself with. Thought about it but never did.

 

[NolaRabbit]

this reminds of a very scary call i had many years ago. I was working for a private service doing transports. We had just finished taking a pt. home and were sitting in the rig waiting to copy the next run. Out of nowhere this guy sticks a gun through the open drivers side window and puts it to the head of my partner. My partner who was Veitnam vet clamly says " I didn't do two tours in Veitnam to die like this!" He quickly throws the door open hitting the guy in the head and chest and knocking the gun out of his hand. He then jumps out and starts to beat the crap out this guy.

OMG! Scary!! I've often wondered what I would do if faced with a gun to my head, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been as daring as your partner. You both are really lucky!

I've been working EMS in the Big Sleazy for over 7 years now and thankfully I've never been assaulted. I've had combative patients try to bite, spit and hit, but I've never been a victim. I have actually had someone climb in the back of my ambulance while I was in it - TWICE! Both times they were psych patients that had eloped out of the ER. The second time I was actually in the back of the unit when the guy started climbing in. We tussled a bit in the doorway until hospital PD ran out and grabbed him by the ankles. He ended up doing a faceplant on the back bumper as PD dragged him from his death grip on the stretcher. It looked like it hurt...a lot. :blush:

 

[EMT-P633]

Allow me to refine my statement. I carry concealed when not at work. While I am not sure of the legal part of carrying on an Ambulance in GA, I do know that it is against hospital policy to have a firearm on property. ambulance=extension of said property and I like my job, so I choose not to challenge them. As for scene safety, that is what staging and PD are for, they get paid to carry.

In GA, it is legal to carry concealed in your home, your car, and your business without a permit. Anything outside of thise locations requires getting a CCW permit from the local probate court.

Kind of the same here in TN. As far as the state is concerned. It is legal to carry concealed firearms on an ambulance. How ever they (state EMS board) does not in any way recommend carrying of any weapon. They have chosen to leave the actual policy to the individual services be it local gov or private. The 2 services I work for (local gov 911) do not allow firearms in the building (stations) but if you have your permit to carry you may leave them secured in your vehicle at your own risk.

Personally I feel that I would not want to face the legal consequences of using a firearm while on duty. It has been my experience that if I need more protection then a nice stern voice. Im gettin some LEO's and backin my fanny to the truck then down the street.

On the way to the call if I feel that it has the direct potential to get ugly. I will have LEO's enroute before we even get on scene. Alot of our calls are O.D. domestics, MVC, in which LEO's are already sent by dispatch as part of our local EMA proptocols. Now the general sickness, S.O.B. C/P, etc, etc no we dont usually have them enroute to begin with.

Common sence will serve a person well in this buisness. alot farther then the ones who get tunnel vision get all squirrely.

 

[Brooks416]

As an educator at the Maine Criminal Justice academy said in a class about when to shoot your weapon ( I would rather be tried by twelve people than carried by six people)

 

[BossyCow]

As an educator at the Maine Criminal Justice academy said in a class about when to shoot your weapon ( I would rather be tried by twelve people than carried by six people)

I can't imagine a situation where those two options are the only ones available to you. Lot of grey area between that black and white!

 

[speakofblue]

Bems

Not sure on this one. Maybe a more informed person can clear things up. But, I've heard that Boston EMS is fitted for vests and carries mace. Pretty sure I've seen them with handcuffs.

As for myself, I don't carry any weapons. I can see where they may be of use in the most rare of situations. But, in most cases, use your head to de-escalate the scene.