Self protection question

Coins, you're kidding me, right?

Uh, Coins....?
 
mycroft,

Wasn't that the Sleeper Hold or Choke Hold they used to teach as a way to subdue someone struggling in the water?
 
Allow me to refine my statement. I carry concealed when not at work. While I am not sure of the legal part of carrying on an Ambulance in GA, I do know that it is against hospital policy to have a firearm on property. ambulance=extension of said property and I like my job, so I choose not to challenge them. As for scene safety, that is what staging and PD are for, they get paid to carry.

In GA, it is legal to carry concealed in your home, your car, and your business without a permit. Anything outside of thise locations requires getting a CCW permit from the local probate court.
 
I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. We don't carry anything and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind.
Last weekend I had a mutual aid call to another community for difficulty breathing. Upon arrival the pt was sitting on the ground with beer cans around him. The BLS crew was two guys, I was with a student and my driver. I grabbed the two guys and had them ride with us and the FD that was on scene before we got there called for PD.This person was rotten, tried to touch me and was verbally abusive. My student did a fab job and the male EMTs did a great job keeping this guys hands off my student. I stood at the head of the stretcher observing and keeping my driver informed of what was going on so he could relay it to the PD.
Most of the time we run a two person crew so I would have been having a bad day until I could get more man power and PD on board.
 
Medic9 said:
I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. We don't carry anything and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind.
Last weekend I had a mutual aid call to another community for difficulty breathing. Upon arrival the pt was sitting on the ground with beer cans around him. The BLS crew was two guys, I was with a student and my driver. I grabbed the two guys and had them ride with us and the FD that was on scene before we got there called for PD.This person was rotten, tried to touch me and was verbally abusive. My student did a fab job and the male EMTs did a great job keeping this guys hands off my student. I stood at the head of the stretcher observing and keeping my driver informed of what was going on so he could relay it to the PD.
Most of the time we run a two person crew so I would have been having a bad day until I could get more man power and PD on board.
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What type of weapon were you hoping to have available to you?

Who had the complaint of difficulty breathing?

Did you not have the option to wait a little longer at scene for PD? Didn't you state that PD had already been called? You said the person was still moving and talking. Were there any signs that this patient needed rapid transport?

Were you even able to do any medical assessment or treatment during transport?

It seems you may have put yourself and your crew into this situation as well as taking another ambulance out of service.
 
mycrofft said:
PS: as a former lifesaver, I would pay you a quarter, paypal, right now, if you show me the American Red Cross materials instructing you how to knock out a victim.
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Oh that's too easy! For just a quarter? Come one, gotta make it worth a little more for me to go produce material.

Though my original question was not really pertaining to firearms, and I know that EMS very often wear vests and carry ASP's where I'm from in LA/OC. Just more curious about day to day calls in non-top 10 murder capitals of the world areas, dealing with drunks, irate persons, drug users, etc

As someone mentioned though, the good ol maglite is a marvelous device for many reasons.
 
Well

BossyCow said:
Best protection is common sense. Making sure scene safe is really scene safe. To paraphrase the old catholic baltimore catichism... to avoid the near occasion of danger
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Yeah, thats a given. But if I've learned one thing, it's that people are asses and a situation can go from great to oh crap in no time.

Here's one....

Ok, Mrs. Smith, we got you back into your recliner, is there anything else we can do for you? Lock your door?
Nah, baby, I'm ok.
Are you sure you don't want us to lock you door, your visiting nurse won't be back for a while and this is a tough neighborhood.
Oh, thats ok.....Thats what I have this for.
90 yr old Mrs. Smith pulls out a old 38. special and before she can say..."see!" is goes on grazing her hand and left knee.
Beat that as far as out of nowhere!
 
i never saw any of our medics carrying weapons. Some have small knives for cutting clothes but it's not for self protection.

What I did notice was none had any problem strapping a patient down if they became angry or overly agitated. After that one would sit behind the patient so they would not be within reach either way (patient would have to turn around before even being able to see the medic, plenty of time to react).

I don't plan on having anything on me for a weapon. I could do way more good just being near the door ready to run.
 
VentMedic said:
What type of weapon were you hoping to have available to you?

Who had the complaint of difficulty breathing?

Did you not have the option to wait a little longer at scene for PD? Didn't you state that PD had already been called? You said the person was still moving and talking. Were there any signs that this patient needed rapid transport?

Were you even able to do any medical assessment or treatment during transport?

It seems you may have put yourself and your crew into this situation as well as taking another ambulance out of service.
Click to expand...


I didn't want any weapon available.

The person sitting on the ground was complaining of difficulty breathing. He left his house because he got tired of waiting for an ambulance. We were called in for ALS and another agency was called to cover because the ambulance in that area didn't respond (volunteer).

We had already been on scene too long waiting for PD that was coming from another county and moving the patient to the ambulance.
Yes, assessment was done and treatment given. One of my concerns was cold weather injuries since he had been sitting in the snow and the temp was well below freezing.

Please understand that I work in a rural setting and sitting waiting for PD just isn't possible some times. They met us when we were over half way to the hospital.
 
Well.......... here we go........... again :)

In EMS you must train for 4 specific areas when you think of training for Self-Defense in EMS or better termed Defensive Tactics for EMS (DT4EMS).

1) Your Mind (Knowing "when" it's OK to use self-defense)
2) The Street (The actual incident)
3) The Media ("Medic beats up drunk man"-the headline reads)
4) The Courtroom ( Civil/Criminal..... 'cause you will defend yourself there too)

The problem with being "armed" with any type of a weapon can add to your worries/problems in training for all 4 areas.

I am against EMS being armed. My reason....... they will try to dig for that "tool" rather than taking the time to escape which MUST be your goal.

It takes at least two people to fight.

Folks......... I have spent 12 years training EMS in Defensive Tactics. Using a weapon in EMS usually ends bad for the EMS provider and the service (s)he works for.

I have tons of articles available for anyone that wants one.

Kip
 
Medic9 said:
I didn't want any weapon available.

The person sitting on the ground was complaining of difficulty breathing. He left his house because he got tired of waiting for an ambulance. We were called in for ALS and another agency was called to cover because the ambulance in that area didn't respond (volunteer).

We had already been on scene too long waiting for PD that was coming from another county and moving the patient to the ambulance.
Yes, assessment was done and treatment given. One of my concerns was cold weather injuries since he had been sitting in the snow and the temp was well below freezing.

Please understand that I work in a rural setting and sitting waiting for PD just isn't possible some times. They met us when we were over half way to the hospital.
Click to expand...

You change the tone of your post quickly when questioned. Your first post had little about the care of the patient except he had beer cans around him and that seemed to be your entire assessment. It also seems like your system has a few other issues.

Did you get an ETA from PD? I know it would be rather stupid and dangerous to have an LEO doing an emergency response to a scene to assist EMS providers, endangering him/herself and then be canceled a block away or have them chase the ambulance. You still wanted your driver to keep in contact with PD so they could chase the ambulance for a meeting. That also puts a lot of pressure on your driver to get you and your crew somewhere safely when in fact you may just wanted him to go faster to get rid of the patient from your truck.

If you still has such concern for the safety of the crew, not to mention the patient, why not do some treatment at scene where you had the help from FD to control the scene. You could have moved the patient to the back of the truck for warmth with their help. Having an uncontrolled situation, if it was so bad that you wanted PD, is NOT a good or safe idea in the back of a moving truck.

Original post:

Originally Posted by Medic9
I guess making sure you present yourself as a no-nonsense type right off the bat with those kind of people you can usually diffuse a situation. We don't carry anything and as much as I have joked about O2 therapy I would have to be in a serious situation to even have it cross my mind.
Last weekend I had a mutual aid call to another community for difficulty breathing. Upon arrival the pt was sitting on the ground with beer cans around him. The BLS crew was two guys, I was with a student and my driver. I grabbed the two guys and had them ride with us and the FD that was on scene before we got there called for PD.This person was rotten, tried to touch me and was verbally abusive. My student did a fab job and the male EMTs did a great job keeping this guys hands off my student. I stood at the head of the stretcher observing and keeping my driver informed of what was going on so he could relay it to the PD.
Most of the time we run a two person crew so I would have been having a bad day until I could get more man power and PD on board.
Click to expand...

I suggest you get in touch with DT4EMS and see if you can learn something about dealing with patients like this for your safety and that of your crew as well as the patient.
 
Unlike some posters I will never get detailed about a call on this forum or any other. It may sound like I didn't care, put my crew and PD at risk but at no time was that the case. Maybe I should stay away from talking about calls here since I refuse to get detailed.
Should I have told you about his six inch snot-cicle hanging from his nose? Or that he had +PMS x3 not 4 because of an artifical limb???? I work in an area that has spots with no radio or cell phone signal. I did what I did because it was necessary.
By the way, I already contacted the person you recommended.
 
The reason I used your posts as an example is to demonstrate the different ways the use of words or attitude on scene can make or break the atmosphere surrounding the event.

If you used th same descriptive words from your first post to where bystanders or other providers of various levels that may have limited experience or even country LEOs that are not that experienced, you could insite a hazardous situation. The way you and your crew conduct yourself if you are the highest medical authority will set the mood for the scene. If you are judgemental, the others will be also regardless of how sick or injured the person is.
 
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Vent, when I was a lifeguard/dockhand I'd just finished a year as a feedstore clerk..

170 lbs, could carry almost three hundred, I'd feed them my non-dominant arm then swarm on top and hold em under for a sec, let em up and scream "Give up!!" into their ear.
(Well, that's what's worked against the oiled and shaved LA County beach guard we had to beat to pass the course).
(No I don't like gladiator movies, and it wasn't a female, weren't any then).

Naw, just get the cross chest hold good and tight then lever em up on your hip as you stroke for shore.

Works very poorly on a city street.
 
I'm not afraid to start swinging O2 bottles in self defense...

Mama said knock you out!

:P
 
Have you ever heard of an "Oxygen Overdose?" Yeah, I've heard of that happening countless times, though I've never had to do it myself.
 
I am a former police officer and have a type IIa vest that I have used in training. I am trained to retrieve downed officers with the use of a vest and ballistic blanket. ( part of homeland security grant use) Have not had a situation where it even came to thought to use. But they are available.
 
If we go to a mva here we get to wear a spiffy orange vest with the yellow reflecters on it lol. I do carry a knife on me as far as I know I am allowed to I carry it for rescue calls since it is a knife/seatbelt cutter/window punch all rolled into one and only god knows what is going to be missing from the rig somedays. Never plan on using it on anyone. If there is any doubt call the pd make sure the scene is safe before you get there. I have had to use an O2 bottle once not something I would want to do again I had no other choice but to defend myself. PD was not avaible at that time I had a 250 lb 6'5 man swinging at me. Down here in nc the pd are great about getting to the call before us and making sure the scene is safe.
 
We don't have anything, but I've heard of self-defense incidents where pretty serious damage to the patient resulted and it was simply documented and no charges were ever pressed (patients were biting, trying to strangle the practitioner with her stethoscope, etc), and the damage to the patient was on the order as high as a skull fracture. It sounds like they don't care what we do as long as it's justified and the "discussion" stops once patient is completely restrained or unconscious.
 
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