Second Request???

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WuLabsWuTecH

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So we were monitoring a dispatch from the next county over that we normally don't monitor, and I heard the strangest call over the radio. There was a fire, and it sounded like they were requesting mutual aid, but they kept asking for a second request and a third request. I know it wasn't just a second alarm fire, and a request for the second ups, because the requests were for the SAME units. For example:

Alexandria Engine 301, Engine 302, Tanker 301, Ladder 301, Rescue 301, Respond to <address> at a report of a fire. (dispatch message obviously continues but the rest is irrelevant)

(5 minutes passes)

Alexandria Engine 302, Ladder 301, Rescue 301. Second Request. Respond to <address> at a report of a fire.

(another 5 minutes or so passes)
Alexandria Engine 302, Ladder 301, Rescue 301. Third Request. Respond to <address> at a report of a fire.

Now the address was not in district for them (at least I don't believe so, not sure since i don't work in that area), so i believe they were Mutual aiding someone else, but I heard other dispatches for other districts with the same second request phrase so I was just wondering what that was about.

It seems to me, that if their unit was OOS 5 minutes ago, it would still be OOS new most likely, and rather than wait 5 minutes, and try again to see if they cleared, why not dispatch someone from farther away? We were monitoring their dispatch since our dispatch and their dispatch frequencies got patched together since one of the units from our county was responding and needed to communicate with them, but our units which took 20 minutes to get there, were there after only 4 trucks from all of the other 5 or 6 agencies responding got there. The 2 Medic Units, that were 20 minutes away, were already there while everyone was still trying the whole "second request" thing. This was in the middle of the day! Had they asked for some of our engines, they could have probably had most of the fire out before they were done third requesting things! Ok, that last part might be a bit of an exaggeration, but if they called on our medic units, from miles and miles away since all of their medics were OOS, why not call for our engines too instead of hoping one of their units would clear in the next 5 minutes?

And yes, about 40 minutes after our medic units got there they called for a couple of our rescues and engines (since our county is an urban setting we only have a few tankers that are never in service anyway so they had to call elsewhere for that) but I just don't understand why they waited so long before realizing their units were tied up elsewhere and not going to clear anytime soon.

None of the medics I was working with that day knew what was going on either and thought it would be strange to wait for someone to clear instead of just dispatching mutual aid.

I was just curious and I know SOMEONE on this forum will know what was going on!
 
I am not a fire person... but it is possible that just nobody from the station was responding? I.e the "second request" was to get them to wake up? As in "HELLO!?! Please respond, we've got a fire!"
 
My guess would be that the dispatched units were from volunteer departments and the second and third requests were in hopes that someone may have become available to take the run.
 
I am from a vollunteer organization so I can confirm what the other guys are saying. We don't call it the # request, to us its the # page (same thing). Essentially dispatch has no choice but to assume we're all at home asleep and we didn't hear the pager go off, so they continue to page us until we respond. Its not just for mutal aid calls, its done on every call. We get toned out and they will continue to page us every __ minutes until we pick up the radio "county X fire is clear on page". Yes basically it tells dispatch we aren't asleep and that we are preparing to go en route, but we have not gone en route yet.
 
Our dispatch will send a second page over the base pager about thirty seconds after the first as a back-up page in case the first tones didn't broadcast properly. 99.5% of the time the first page goes through just fine and the second page is just a loud annoyance echoing in bay, but dispatch does it all the same. Then if we haven't booked on within sixty seconds, we start getting the second page, and then the third page.
 
WolfmanHarris said:
Our dispatch will send a second page over the base pager about thirty seconds after the first as a back-up page in case the first tones didn't broadcast properly. 99.5% of the time the first page goes through just fine and the second page is just a loud annoyance echoing in bay, but dispatch does it all the same. Then if we haven't booked on within sixty seconds, we start getting the second page, and then the third page.
Click to expand...

Thats not vollunteer is it? The system is completely different for vollunteer.
 
They might have been a volly service, I don't know and would have to look it up.

For us, we get in the order: (2 very quiet beeps that are easy to miss in the truck). Then as soon as the dispatch frequency becomes avaliable (usually within 2 minutes) a dispatch over the radio and PA, and then 1 minute later (during the day) or 3 minutes later (during the night) if we haven't marked responding yet (or they didn't get the mark) they will radio us without the PA to check our response. Dunno what happens after since we've never missed a page--it's really loud!--but since we have 3 stations within 2 or 3 miles of us, I would assume they would just eventually give up on us and dispatch the other station to the call and a batallion chief to us to check our PA.

I think the system works well for us--the only thing I don't like about it is we get an annoying radio call 1 minute later if we're still looking up the map book which is just one more thing we now have to deal with. 1 minute is a short time and it's very easy to forget to hit the responding button when you get in the truck and you still have a map to look up!
 
For us calling mutal aid is a hastle, our closest department is 11 minutes away, the other departments we do mutal aid with are 15 and 17. Then the typical response in the county is 6-8 minutes from tones to en route. When we think we have a bad fire we call mutal aid before we even get there because it may very well be 25 minues before anyone shows up, its easier to cancel than to wish you had it.
 
I think the responses above are pretty much right. A second request means that the tones have dropped for a call, and within a certain period of time after the call, a unit has not signed on as in service.

The way it works here is that the tones drop, and if we haven't called en route within 7 minutes, a second request is put out. If the second request isn't answered in 4 minutes or so, then the call goes directly to mutual aid. There is no third or subsequent request.
 
I was with a volunteer department in Northern NM for several years, and I too can relate. Sometimes when a district (as we called them) was toned out and either no one from the district responded or not enough people from said district responded, they would do a "second page". If no one still responded, they would then tone out mutual aide. If still not enough personnel responded, they would tone what was/ is called and "all county staff" request and and then anyone from any of the 14 districts within the county would respond. As some else said, the second page is a wake up letting the personnel within the originally paged district know no one was responding, and so if you are available please do. I have heard a "third page" go out, but if for some reason the dispatcher felt compelled to do for some reason, perhaps because she was unsure of what else to do or was unable to get a mutual aide request replied to soon enough.

To answer your question about why someone further away wasn't dispatched, there could be a few reasons for this. When I started the above department the jurisdictional politics was a nightmare. Each district was a different entity, sponsored by a different group of people. Eventually The county took over all of it, which quelled some issues, but created others. I do not involve myself in the politics of the business because I believe when someone calls 911 there is simply no place for them; further more I am a vol EMT/ FF, and if I wanted politics I would run for office. However sometimes, and in some places, these issues do exist and it creates problems such as what you are referring to.

Another reason could be the mutual aide was responding, but not in sufficient quantity and therefore a third page was necessary to get more equipment and personnel to the scene.

Unfortunately with volunteer agencies, and I mean no disrespect as I am and have been a volunteer, and I have never been paid, you run into the problem of a lack in response. The fact it was mid day makes it even harder to get them to respond because most of them are at work. This is no one's fault, as they need to work to make a living, but it is a fact of life. I have worked nights most of my life, and so there was more then once I was the only one, maybe I had another if I was lucky, responding to a call, and I relied heavily on mutual aide out of necessity. The benefit was after the county took it all over, I had a much easier time getting it.

I am saying this is what happened, only saying it is possible.
 
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