Scene times

I prefer to minimize scene times by doing what I can en route to the hospital. Obviously there are times when it's more appropriate and in the best interests of the patient to do certain procedures on the scene, like a 12-lead. It drives me crazy when crews will sit on scene forever just so they can walk into the hospital having run every test and done every procedure/treatment in our protocol yet they were 5 minutes from the hospital. Sure, if the patient really needs it then do it but most of the time that's not the case.
 
The person who is driving brings in the jump bag and does the primary assessment, vitals, ect. The passenger who is doing the chart fills the info into the ePCR while this is happening. Once a baseline vitals are obtained, the driver goes and gets whatever moving material we might need to get the patient out of the scene while the tech completes the SAMPLE/OPQRST. Driver comes back, patient on the chair/reeves/board, out to the cot and away we go.

I think we've now got into the kinds of territory where its really hard for me to understand some of the subtleties without actually seeing it, but it feels like there is a lot of box ticking going on here and not a lot of in depth assessment.

That said those times are amazing and I think we could benefit from learning from this in regards to trauma pts with a definite need for surg/angio. I think we spend too much time pissing about with some of these pts.

We spend 15-30 minutes onscene for medical calls.

Usually try to aim for 10 for traumas.

RMAs can easily take 45-60 minutes if it is post treatment or AMA. (calling doctor takes a while sometimes)

See my comment above about trauma.

EG: Multiple ped vs car. I went off to check on a kid with a femur while my partner and the MICA bloke took a pt with obvious head and chest injuries, ?flail, GCS 11. Plenty of help available I punted the kid to another crew, went back to the other bloke maybe 5 mins later. We were on scene for approx 25 mins getting him assessed, immobilised, lines, pain relief, MICA bloke considering intubation/decompression. Approx 45 mins from the trauma centre. This is pretty standard in our system. I think a lot of what we did could have been done on the way. If we then decided on a tube or a decompression there is no reason we couldn't just pull over.

Oh yes. We get called for what amount to "check-ups" all the time. If its some vague complaint or something that's not an obvious need for the hospital, there's absolutely no rush. However, if it's potential cardiac or potential neuro, they're more than likely going.

I don't find that me multitasking with my patient significantly hinders my ability for an assessment. I'm not going to say I don't have room for improvement, but I tend to be pretty good at extracting information from my patient and finding out what's going on. I don't need to sit there and contemplate every answer I get before I can move on to my next question. It's all pretty fluid.

That also translates into not frequently regretting transporting patients that may be an "expedited" depart from scene. If it's obviously not cardiac, then we change gears. But if I determine it's cardiac or can't rule out cardiac, they're going. Same with neuro. It doesn't take very long to establish that. As abc said, in 5 minutes you can typically tell whether or not you need to go right away. If they don't need to go right away, they may not need to go at all. That can be determined after you've sat around and talked and assessed further. But for the initial decision, 5 minutes is a long time.

I certainly agree with pretty fluid assessments, but I don't we have the same culture of early identification of the need for transport. Certainly we have a culture involving identifying sick people early, but we don't tend to equate that to fast transport. Which seems to be the key difference. I would say that mostly that taking a bit more time is better in terms assessment is best and I know I hate feeling like I don't completely have a handle on things before we arrive at hospital. None the less I think we could stand to learn from you guys on certain pts. Certain trauma pts, STEMIs etc. There is something that appeals to me about the feeling of pit crew efficiency American EMS seems to have.
 
We had a lady in anaphylaxis today. Walked in, found her unconscious on the floor, tongue swollen to china, face enormous, cold, clammy, gray skin.

Grabbed her, threw her on the stretcher, back in the ambulance inside of 8 minutes, with airway management and subq epi, benadryl, solumedrol, before we left the scene at the 12 minute mark.

She was awake at the 15 minute mark.

It was a fun call. Quite a while since I saw someone quite so sick with anaphylaxis.
 
Aren't there many "watershed" situations like that which say "Sorry, gotta run" to us, despite the cultural bias to try to "Greg House" our way through?
s640x480
 
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I'd say our average scene time is about 20 minutes, seeing as most of our calls aren't time or transport critical. This time is spent doing the initial assessment, obtaining vitals, starting treatment, checking meds and negotiating over where to transport.

For those sicker patient I tend to push for less scene time and more go. I feel that we tend to spend too much time on scene with trauma patients, when really what they need is cold steel and bright lights. Obviously the more sets of hands makes it easier.
 
Aren't there many "watershed" situations like that which say "Sorry, gotta run" to us, despite the cultural bias to try to "Greg House" our way through?
s640x480

Do you mean do I have those moments where I think...oh bugger, we need to be in hospital wiki bloody tic?

Almost never. And rarely before some kind of intervention I need to do on scene. The last four pts with systolic BPs < of between 50-70 that I've attended inspired in me almost no desire to move quickly to hospital because I was confident in my dx and confident in my ability to fix the problem. That said, in that same period of time there have been STEMIs where I thought by our standards we did well, but by American standards we were very sloppy and trauma pts where we lingered too long.

I'd say our average scene time is about 20 minutes, seeing as most of our calls aren't time or transport critical. This time is spent doing the initial assessment, obtaining vitals, starting treatment, checking meds and negotiating over where to transport.

For those sicker patient I tend to push for less scene time and more go. I feel that we tend to spend too much time on scene with trauma patients, when really what they need is cold steel and bright lights. Obviously the more sets of hands makes it easier.

This sounds quite similar to us. You work in a metro setting right?

I'm quite sure my scene times have increased on average by about 10 mins since I moved to a rural setting. I've read other people who have had similar things to say. Thoughts
 
Anybody know of any good data on how many providers show up at a scene for a particular set of calls? That'd be awfully interesting.
 
We had a lady in anaphylaxis today. Walked in, found her unconscious on the floor, tongue swollen to china, face enormous, cold, clammy, gray skin.

Grabbed her, threw her on the stretcher, back in the ambulance inside of 8 minutes, with airway management and subq epi, benadryl, solumedrol, before we left the scene at the 12 minute mark.

She was awake at the 15 minute mark.

It was a fun call. Quite a while since I saw someone quite so sick with anaphylaxis.

This is where scene time is complete hype. What is the point of hauling a critical patient to the ambulance so quickly? You essentially delayed treatment of a critical patient in order to minimize scene time? Would the 12 minute scene time have looked as good if she coded while you were moving her?
 
If we then decided on a tube or a decompression there is no reason we couldn't just pull over.

I did this on about half of RSIs. Get rolling and then, once set up, pull over and perform the intubation. Once placement confirmed, get rolling again. Some medics would attempt the first intubation while the ambulance was moving - I would not advocate doing this.
 
Do you mean do I have those moments where I think...oh bugger, we need to be in hospital wiki bloody tic?

Almost never. And rarely before some kind of intervention I need to do on scene. The last four pts with systolic BPs < of between 50-70 that I've attended inspired in me almost no desire to move quickly to hospital because I was confident in my dx and confident in my ability to fix the problem. That said, in that same period of time there have been STEMIs where I thought by our standards we did well, but by American standards we were very sloppy and trauma pts where we lingered too long.



This sounds quite similar to us. You work in a metro setting right?

I'm quite sure my scene times have increased on average by about 10 mins since I moved to a rural setting. I've read other people who have had similar things to say. Thoughts

Ya ya metro Brisbane. Not to mention every elderly person here lives in a 'Queenslander" style house

house_queenslander.jpg



-_-
 
I think we've now got into the kinds of territory where its really hard for me to understand some of the subtleties without actually seeing it, but it feels like there is a lot of box ticking going on here and not a lot of in depth assessment.

That said those times are amazing and I think we could benefit from learning from this in regards to trauma pts with a definite need for surg/angio. I think we spend too much time pissing about with some of these pts.

It doesnt take me any more then 5-7 minutes to get a CC, Hx, Rx, Allergies from a patient. The way our charting system works is that every field defaults to a normal healthy patient. So i only have to tic boxes if there are abnormalities. So if the airway is patent, mentation is normal, GCS is 15, and physical assessment is unremarkable, thats three pages of my chart that are "done" without having to even touch them. I just need to document my activity


The desire to leave the scene is because there is nothing i can do on scene that i cant also do in the comfort of my ambulance. And its not a desire to get an ambulance to a hospital, because i rarely use RL&S to and from calls
 
On my rural department:

There is a huge push to get us going. It's an average of 42 minutes to the hospital (less if people want to go to the county hospital, but they have trouble handling anything more than a minor illness/injury--their handling of cardiac arrests has caused our chief and medical director to question whether they are an "appropriate" facility when we're to go to closest/most appropriate). Most runs are under 20 minutes unless we are doing a refusal b/c we have to collect all the info before leaving. I know this due to us getting a checkup at the 20 minute mark. The only exception are those large patients, patients who are on a trail that is hard to access, extrications, and cardiac arrests (where a scene time of at least 20 minutes is mandated by what we need to do from the protocol).

On our primary truck, it goes something like this for someone who knows they want to go (times rounded up to the nearest :30 based on 2 calls I kept track of time for):
0:00 Arrive on scene
1:00 Pt contact made
2:00 CC determined, vitals started by second man while first is getting hx. Third man assists as necessary
4:00 hx, vitals finished. Determination to go to hospital made. Discussion of where to go done.
5:00 Third man get's gurney, second man helps collect pt meds, patient info or belongings. The meds and any pt info will be read at a later time in the truck. If this is not needed, he goes to spike a bag in the truck if one is not already spiked. In-Charge hooks up a 12-lead patches/wires (but not attached to monitor)
6:30 Gurney is back, everyone helps load patient onto gurney.
8:00 patient is loaded onto truck.
8:00-10:00: any interventions that need to be done before movement are done sitting in the truck (like EKG, some medic prefer one attempt on an IV before moving). Then we get underway. We often keep the driver in the back until we are ready to go to help with things.

Obviously any interventions that we do on scene will prolong this, but we usually keep it under 15 minutes for a medical call.

When I run as in-charge of the squad, the only changes I make are that I obviously don't have as much equipment to take with me. And other than vitals, i rarely do anything on scene for a medical call. Since I need medcon for a 12-lead anyways, we can pull over and do that enroute. My scene times are averaging at just under 10 minutes right now even though my truck is always only a 2-man truck. I also take the cot in initially on patients that I know are frequent fliers (since our response time can be up to 40 minutes to some parts of our district, I have a lot of time to look these things up on the computer on our way there).

At my city department, things are much slower:

The crew I usually works with likes to sit outside someone's house for 20 minutes at a time doing interventions, starting the IV, etc. This is because our MD is a lot more strict with the protocol, and if you get to starting an IV, you better have everything above that line on the protocol done. It seems kind of ridiculous to me since we can be at the hospital in about 5 minutes, 8-10 minutes in traffic, but they like starting their IVs and playing with their monitor so they sit there and do everything on scene. Another crew I often work with does the opposite. The minimize on scene time, but then we sit in the hospital parking lot for ages waiting for them to finish the CYA stuff.

Often, on BLS runs, the medic will put me in charge (especially if it's close to dinner time) as this means less CYA stuff to be done. On a recent patient, we couldn't have been more than about 5 blocks away from the hospital so all I got done were vitals enroute. He was very stable and was asked to call 911 after having dialysis that day for having a low platelet count. I might get dinged for not checking his BGL, but on second thought, I might not because I did nothing in the protocol below that line so it simply could have been I didn't have enough time to check it before arrival.
 
This is where scene time is complete hype. What is the point of hauling a critical patient to the ambulance so quickly? You essentially delayed treatment of a critical patient in order to minimize scene time? Would the 12 minute scene time have looked as good if she coded while you were moving her?

With such a long transport time, I get a two for one return on the minutes I save on scene getting back in service.

There was absolutely no delay in treatment for the patient, we came prepared for a sick patient, and started treatment immediately. I do what I can to NOT have to do a hands-on move of a patient with multiple lines. That is just way less complicated in the ambulance.

The purpose for minimizing time on the scene goes beyond JUST minimizing time on the scene. There is nothing going on in the house that we can't do in the ambulance. In the ambulance we have a nice elevated surface for the patient to lay on, suction at hand, monitor right there, and no moving a wired up patient to contend with.

Our patient got her epi, got taken out to the truck and got the rest of her treatment. I don't find that moving people slows treatment down that much...in fact I would say that getting them into the ambulance solves a lot of logistical issues because now we are on our turf.

I guess it comes down to a difference in preference, and ability to quickly move the patient.
 
With such a long transport time, I get a two for one return on the minutes I save on scene getting back in service.

There was absolutely no delay in treatment for the patient, we came prepared for a sick patient, and started treatment immediately. I do what I can to NOT have to do a hands-on move of a patient with multiple lines. That is just way less complicated in the ambulance.

The purpose for minimizing time on the scene goes beyond JUST minimizing time on the scene. There is nothing going on in the house that we can't do in the ambulance. In the ambulance we have a nice elevated surface for the patient to lay on, suction at hand, monitor right there, and no moving a wired up patient to contend with.

Our patient got her epi, got taken out to the truck and got the rest of her treatment. I don't find that moving people slows treatment down that much...in fact I would say that getting them into the ambulance solves a lot of logistical issues because now we are on our turf.

I guess it comes down to a difference in preference, and ability to quickly move the patient.

Exactly! We also never delay patient care to minimize scene time. An arrest for us will always have a >20 minute scene time just due to the sheer volume of stuff that happens before we can get going (unless of course we get ROSC before that mark) You want to still provide patient care, but at the same time, optimize scene time. I think a lot of people get this picture in their head of us rural EMTs always just getting there and throwing people into the back, but that's not how it is at all. We just have learned that dilly-daddling on scene just comes back to bit us in the butt so we and our crews have learned to work together to optimize scene time. Not everyone has to be standing around the patient at all times to provide good patient care!
 
I don't ever move actually dead people until after ROSC. We work them in place until we call it.

No point driving a dead person to the er.
 
Also, I will say that IME, rural EMS providers waste way more time at the hospital than more urban ones.

Urban crews are still in their area at the hospital. We are two counties away. Lessens the sense of urgency to get clear of the hospital.
 
Melclin, I think it's the travel time to the receiving facility more than the style of living that makes the difference, no? And how "primary care" the call is versus "OMG EMS". (Of course rural in Australia means something different than here, and bring a whole new category of cases when rural agrarian and recreation is involved).

You might keep records for a month or so, include mileage back to hospital versus time on scene versus category of emergency once you get there (not the dispatch problem, those are not infrequently wrong if I recall my dispatch days!).

Re. the "watershed" question, I meant that there are circumstances/DDX which you know from experience and training are going to go certain ways, and sue of those ways are inevitably going to be to a hospital.
 
I figured the numbers would be better than my gut.

Suburban/rural FD with 1 ALS ambulance (May 2011 to May 2012, 1370 transports with times, 2219 dispatches):

Call Received to Arrival: 12.5 mins average (9.4 mins median).
Dispatch to Arrival: 8.4 mins average (7.9 mins median).
Arrival to Depart Scene: 18.7 mins average (15.6 mins median).
Arrival Scene to Hospital: 36.9 mins average (33.9 mins median).
Depart Scene to Hospital: 18.3 mins average (17.25 mins median).
Hospital to Available: 27.0 mins average (22.6 mins median).
Dispatched to Hospital: 45.5 mins average (42.8 mins median).
Dispatched to Available: 59.9 mins average (57.1 mins median).

Of our four shifts they vary from 42 minutes Dispatch-Receiving to 50 minutes Dispatch-Receiving. I pulled my times and it appears I'm 12.4 mins average on scene and 41.1 mins average Dispatch-Receiving.

If we're transporting, we're spending about 20 minutes on scene with another 15 minutes on the road. Plus another 20 minutes to turn around and then another 15 minutes to drive back. So, we're an hour on average for every call not including the drive back.

For QA, we look at each interval and only ask questions if it appears there was inadequate documentation as to why one was longer than expected. However, most crews document delays religiously as it helps us when lobbying for manpower either at the department or at receiving facilities.
 
I don't ever move actually dead people until after ROSC. We work them in place until we call it.

No point driving a dead person to the er.

Lucky your protocols allow that. We can't always call things on scene. Also, as a basic squad, I can NEVER call it on scene unless of obvious death.

Also, I will say that IME, rural EMS providers waste way more time at the hospital than more urban ones.

Urban crews are still in their area at the hospital. We are two counties away. Lessens the sense of urgency to get clear of the hospital.

It depends. Some of our urban crews here have run narratives that are about 2 lines long. IDK how they get away with this. But usually the rural crews are in and out in a flash. Especially the ones that have mobile faxing and can finish their run report on their way back. We don't have that, so I have to finish my run report at the hospital if it's not already done, but with our crews and how everyone knows what their role is at the hospital, we get things done very quickly. And yes, at my suburban department we are still in our district, but as a matter of choice, I keep my radio off or tuned to the last channel (hospital channel) when I'm writing my report. No reason to skimp on documentation just to try to make a run when there are a gazillion departments nearby for mutual aid.
 
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