Ride-Alongs

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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Irregardless of what I think, if people are placed on my truck I dont have much of choice. That would be above my paygrade.

I check the schedule the night before I go on shift. When I show up in the morning for crew change, there are people there, and it is what it is. In 10 years Ive only had a handfull of circumstances where a pt. had a problem with a student or observer being in the back of the truck. Now... a student starting an IV? ehhhh I get pt. with an aversion to that from time to time, so we take care of that. But on the few occasions that I have had a pt. that was truly against having a student or observer in the back with them, usually a little explination, and a calming voice can take care of that.

Like I said if all else fails, then people have to be moved around. If thats not possible, than it's simply not possible. I cannot, and will not leave crew members on scene. whether a student, volunteer, observer, or another paid medic. Irregardless of the pt. wishes. If it is simply impossible to move a crew member to the front of the truck, or out of view of the pt. The pt. will just have to deal with it. I am not going to put someone out on the side of the road.

If the pt. wants to throw a huge fit over it, I am more than happy to have the field sup meet them at the hospital if they are available, or get them on the phone, and they can discuss it with them. But I have absolutely no control over who gets put on the truck. That would be our scheduling departments job.

I must clarify as well.. It is not that often that I have THAT many people on the truck The most I have on the truck on an even frequent basis is 4. Me, partner, a volunteer (usually the same volunteer every fri or sat) and a student. My volunteer is a great guy. He is an awesome basic, and truly an enjoyment to have on the truck. He is great with students, and usually takes them under his wing, and helps them .

It has never been an issue where the pt just went nuts because there were a bunch of people on the truck.

If I were sick, and in need of emergent care, my main concern would be people helping me, not who is on the truck. If you are here to help me, come on with it.
 

AJ Hidell

Forum Deputy Chief
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I realize that it isn't your personal choice. I guess I just can't fathom a professional EMS organization that would actually stuff more than one rider of any kind on an EMS ambulance. There aren't even enough seatbelts for that many people. No, the ones on the squad bench don't count. Just seems that any EMS administrator with half a brain would be smarter than to schedule a cluster like that. It's not ethical on any level.
 

ChargerGirl

Forum Crew Member
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i've had a friend do quite a few ride alongs "under the table" with paramedics in san diego just cuz his friend was working there. but he was also a student in an emt class.
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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Like I said it is not my decision. But I fail to see how it is unethical.
Any student, or observer is bound by hippa, and must sign documentation of confidentiality before they are permitted to ride. These documents are notarized, and kept on file.

All that lawyer stuff...

Once again I fail to see how it is unethical.
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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In regards to "under the table" ride alongs... These are strictly frobidden. On the basis of pt. confidentiality. If they dont have "papers" they dont ride, and that would get me in a heap of trouble.
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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I realize that it isn't your personal choice. I guess I just can't fathom a professional EMS organization that would actually stuff more than one rider of any kind on an EMS ambulance. There aren't even enough seatbelts for that many people. No, the ones on the squad bench don't count. Just seems that any EMS administrator with half a brain would be smarter than to schedule a cluster like that. It's not ethical on any level.

Why dont the ones on the bench seat count? Just curious.
 

AJ Hidell

Forum Deputy Chief
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Simple kinematics. If you are facing sideways, you are not afforded proper protection. If one of your observers bites the big one riding on the squad bench because you did not afford him the protection of an actual seat, your agency might as well bend over and open their checkbook. I've seen it happen. When you fail to reasonably provide for a rider's safety, you are liable, regardless of any waiver he may have signed. The excuse, "well, the student had the jump seat, so the squad bench was all we had" isn't going to fly. They're going to say the same thing I did, which is that you shouldn't have allowed it.
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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We also have two "CPR" seats on the opposite side of the module, that both have lap and chest belts just as the captains seat.
 

AJ Hidell

Forum Deputy Chief
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Still not safe. There is a reason why passenger cars don't have sideways seats in them. They're not safe. And if you have no legitimate participatory reason to be on the ambulance in the first place, it is not possible to justify being in that position. Any organization that allows that is probably unprofessionally managed.
 

boingo

Forum Asst. Chief
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I've never had a patient complain about an observer or student. I guess I've been lucky. We take a lot of observers, all the EM residents are required to ride at some point during their residency at one of the area medical schools, and we occasionally have other EMS agencies from around the world visiting who end up doing a ride along. We have a group from Denmark who ride every year, they are from a fire based service, interesting system. At the age of 40 you are considered too old for EMS work and are "retired" to fire supression. True story.
 

Sasha

Forum Chief
7,667
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When I was doing ride times they were not allowed more than one rider or volunteer for services that had a volunteer aspect (To supplement their paid service). That's it. ONE. Leaving a crew of three on a rescue. If a scheduling fluke got more than one student at a station at a time (either from the same school or different.) we would sit down and discuss the option for one to ride the engine, go home, or go to another station.

Anymore than that is too many people on scene to stand around with their hands in their pockets, and too many people in the back of an ambulance.

All extra riders were required to be able to participate in care. No "observers" that are in it for the blood, guts and glory. That's absurd.
 
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reaper

Working Bum
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I have never seen a professional EMS agency that will allow more then one rider at a time! it is not professional to have that many people on one truck. We do have students, orientees, and civilian riders come on our trucks. If there is more then one that shows up, for rides on one truck, then they are placed on other trucks or sent home. New employees have first right, then students, then civilians. Yes, I have sent people home, when to many have shown up for one truck. Sorry, that is the way it works.

You have every right to refuse a rider on the truck. Your Pt's come first and the scheduling person cannot override your decision.

Your Pt has every right to not have someone there that they don't want observing them. Most time students are not a problem, after explaining to the Pt who they are and why they are there. Civilian observers are a different story. I have removed them off the truck, at the request of a pt. Call the supervisor and have them picked up.

My agency allows civilians to ride one time in a year. We had a guy ride along last week. He showed up the next night and told a crew that he was riding with them and climbed in. The crew didn't know he was not suppose to be there. Once it was found out that he was on the truck, we had LEO escort him back to his car at HQ and explain to him that he cannot come back. These are things that have to be dealt with.

You need to learn that your Pt's rights come before any rider on your truck. You need to step up and stop the clown car mentality of the service. This is EMS, not a circus side show!
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
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Since this thread has been hijacked.

I will take the more argumentative ones, and their opinions and pass them on to my administration, since they seem to be self appointed authorities on professionalism, and what is the status quo.
 

irish_handgrenade

Forum Lieutenant
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No I agree with firemedic, students are there to learn tough crap if the pt doesn't want them in there. that student could very well save someone's life because of what they learned on that call.(possibly the pt or the pt's family). I get this more with L&D clinicals. Paramedics deliver babies in the back of the ambulance, all these women who don't want us to observe their birth are setting back that student. What they don't consider is, what if they had to have their next child in the box.... what if that student is the medic in the back? That Pt better hope that He/She got good training and saw enough births to know what they are doing.

Anyway that is my rant abaout Pt.s.
Handgrenade out.
 

firemedic7982

Forum Lieutenant
120
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No I agree with firemedic, students are there to learn tough crap if the pt doesn't want them in there. that student could very well save someone's life because of what they learned on that call.(possibly the pt or the pt's family). I get this more with L&D clinicals. Paramedics deliver babies in the back of the ambulance, all these women who don't want us to observe their birth are setting back that student. What they don't consider is, what if they had to have their next child in the box.... what if that student is the medic in the back? That Pt better hope that He/She got good training and saw enough births to know what they are doing.

Anyway that is my rant abaout Pt.s.
Handgrenade out.
+1 Finally someone agrees. ^_^
 

Sasha

Forum Chief
7,667
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No I agree with firemedic, students are there to learn tough crap if the pt doesn't want them in there. that student could very well save someone's life because of what they learned on that call.(possibly the pt or the pt's family). I get this more with L&D clinicals. Paramedics deliver babies in the back of the ambulance, all these women who don't want us to observe their birth are setting back that student. What they don't consider is, what if they had to have their next child in the box.... what if that student is the medic in the back? That Pt better hope that He/She got good training and saw enough births to know what they are doing.

Anyway that is my rant abaout Pt.s.
Handgrenade out.
I can understand for a student, although I still think patient comfort comes before students.

But a volunteer? Why? Aren't volunteers suppose to supplement the service, not be a third wheel?

And why an observer? If they think they want to be in EMS, have them take an EMT class, it's cheap and easy and they can do all the ride times their program allows for. If they don't want to be in EMs, they're just along for the blood and guts and are no better then rubber neckers (Actually, they're worse.).

And why do you need them all at once? How do you even have the room?
 

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