Replacing EMS with nursing revisited

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what about people in situations like me... I want the Education of an RN, but i want to work on a rig... once i become an RN, the only way i could work on a rig is either CCT (critical care transports) or Work as a Medic with a serious paycut and my scope limited... why does it have to be that way?

You are selling your future career as an RN very short. There are many specialty teams besides Flight and CCT that you could be part of. Because some have never been around them or they don't see the specialty ambulances flying at 80 mph with light and sirens, you don't think of these teams as being worthwhile.

Stabilizing a critical neonate or pedicatric patient could take hours. You could also be hours away from your hospital and will travel by many different modes to transportation. Going to other countries to pick up babies and kids can be much more challenging than some of the situations that many of the situations you'll see working an EMS truck with may have just a 10 minute ride. In these situations you will be expected to utilize all of your critical care experience and knowledge to intiate definitive treatment just as you would in the ICU. For adults there are ECMO and cardiac teams or CCTs that are based from a specialty hospital that transport the patients who are a little more complex than just a cardiac monitor. Obstetrics and high risk maternal transport is another specialty that does some very challenging calls.

Organ procurement RN is also a great area and although you are dealing with basically a dead patient, you will be doing a full critical care resuscitative process while evaluating and treating a ton of labs for the goal of saving several other patients or improving their quality of life. In many states Organ Procurement RNs have an extended scope that might even go past some NPs when it comes to procedures like bronchoscopies. But, that job is a heavy responsibility with alot to be done in a very short time. Of course you may also be at a different hospital every 2 - 3 days and you won't have an ambulance to ride around in unless you are in NYC. There are some transplant physicians who may take their own OR RN to accompany them when they retrieve the organs which might give you the opportunity to ride in an ambulance. But again, just like any of the specialty teams, it may take much more education, training and years of experience to achieve the level to offer more than a fast ambulance ride to a patient with just a few interventions that are done now in prehospital or even CCT.

RNs that have these goals are not so stupid to think they'll get their dream job right away nor do they think they can just take over any profession unless they expand their own education and experience. Getting the experience is a big part of their education. Paramedics now are having a difficult time finding clinicals or places for regular skills practice to get them or keep them proficient in the basic skills and knowledge needed for their prehospital specialty. However, RNs on specialty or Flight teams rarely have that problem even when it comes to getting practice with central lines or intubation.

There are are some disadvantages to working Flight or CCT as an RN if the service is separate from the hospital such as a private ambulance. The RN will have to also work in a progressive ICU to stay current. There are too many advancements in critical care medicine that constantly change along with hospital protocols that the RNs should be aware of when assuming care. To stagnate by not staying current can make them very inefficient and even dangerous when it comes to transporting some of these patients.
 
I'm not sure that Public Health nurses work the same everywhere, as I know we don't have a system like that in palace here. Yes, we have the Public Health system, with Public Health RNs, but they deal with all things communicable disease related, some routine care, well baby stuff and public education.

I am 100% sure that I have never heard of any sort of organized home visit system through Public Health. I know there are home visiting RNs available through some of the home care agencies, but their patients are mainly people who are receiving in home care of some kind.
 
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My point was that all Magnet institutions are not created equal, and just because a facility met Magnet requirements during their evaluation does not mean they can't backslide and lose their designation on their next evaluation. It has happened before...

This is the key. They are being evaluated and they are aware of the standards. If they get lax they know the consequences.

How many state and national agencies monitor EMS as closely?

Attempting to achieve a higher standard should be seen as a good thing even if there are alot of kinks in the system to work out. It at least makes people aware of their imperfections in both the administrative and patient care process. At least the hospitals are constantly doing something to make a difference even if it is trial and error.
 
^those are some very good points Journey
i really didnt mean to Generalize CCT RN's soo much..
i was just speaking from my experience working at a private Transport Ambulance companies which consisted of Shorter Transport times..
but i would love to be a Flight CCT RN, the challenges seem worthwhile and rewarding

one of my goals is to become a Trauma RN or ICU RN, I want a fast paced challenging career..

but i appreciate your insight Journey!
 
I'm not sure that Public Health nurses work the same everywhere, as I know we don't have a system like that in palace here. Yes, we have the Public Health system, with Public Health RNs, but they deal with all things communicable disease related, some routine care, well baby stuff and public education.

I am 100% sure that I have never heard of any sort of organized home visit system through Public Health. I know there are home visiting RNs available through some of the home care agencies, but their patients are mainly people who are receiving in home care of some kind.

Home Health and Public Health are two very different areas.

Public Health, like School Nursing, in some states also want their RNs to have BSNs. Home Health nursing can be a variety of different providers including CNAs and LVNs. Case Managers and Social Workers also assist with setting up the most appropriate care by the appropriate agencies for these patients.

There should be a Public Health assoication in your state that is part of the national. I don't know what state you are in but I'm sure you should be able to find it on the web to know what they do. You could probably email them for more information rather than just guessing. They usually quickly respond quickly to questions (may vary from state to state but the national is quick) and send you information. You may only be aware of the obvious things they do in your area and may not know the full extent of what is being done in other cities. It will also vary with the funding a city or county can get for some services. It doesn't mean the Public Health nurses can't do something by job title but there may be no money for the job.
 
^those are some very good points Journey
i really didnt mean to Generalize CCT RN's soo much..
i was just speaking from my experience working at a private Transport Ambulance companies which consisted of Shorter Transport times..
but i would love to be a Flight CCT RN, the challenges seem worthwhile and rewarding

one of my goals is to become a Trauma RN or ICU RN, I want a fast paced challenging career..

but i appreciate your insight Journey!

Since you are in California you do have alot of opportunity as an RN including being involved in the State and county EMS organizations at the upper levels. You also never know what the CNA will come up with for their next challenge and they are usually successful in most of their endeavors.

Good luck!
 
Home Health and Public Health are two very different areas.

Public Health, like School Nursing, in some states also want their RNs to have BSNs. Home Health nursing can be a variety of different providers including CNAs and LVNs. Case Managers and Social Workers also assist with setting up the most appropriate care by the appropriate agencies for these patients.

There should be a Public Health assoication in your state that is part of the national. I don't know what state you are in but I'm sure you should be able to find it on the web to know what they do. You could probably email them for more information rather than just guessing. They usually quickly respond quickly to questions (may vary from state to state but the national is quick) and send you information. You may only be aware of the obvious things they do in your area and may not know the full extent of what is being done in other cities. It will also vary with the funding a city or county can get for some services. It doesn't mean the Public Health nurses can't do something by job title but there may be no money for the job.

I wasn't saying they can't do it, but that at the very least in my area they do not provide that service, I'm not guessing.

I also know that home health agencies often have a variety of types of people working for them, and around here often there are RNs that do regular home checks on top of whatever in home care they receive from an aide or CNA.
 
This would be a great opportunity for some to look up what other professionals do or what a health care team consists of for just one patient that gets placed in a hospital or out patient services' program. It could also give some the opportunity to look for other out of hospital services that are offered to people to keep them from becoming your patients. Some of the posts here are just turf protecting or criticizing a profession based on how they see it from a very limited view and with only the education they might have as an MFR or EMT-B. Many EMTs or Paramedics want recognition for what they do but still continue to bash what could be their biggest supporters. The butt wiping jokes and trying to belittle RNs because they don't do emergencies everyday the same as a Paramedic need to disappear. These jokes do nothing for the EMS profession. RNs do deal with emergencies but in a way that hopefully will prevent the patient from coding. RNs are responsible for monitoring and correcting by their own protocols many different lab values. They don't want to work an emergency such as a code everyday.

Some do not know the extent of what another profession does. As someone posted they carry almost 60 meds and can't figure out why they shouldn't work in the hospital. But what they may not realize, a nurse will hand out well over 60 different meds in just his or her first rounds. Depending on the illness, 30 of those may be just for one patient.

EMS also has its strong points and but it is a specialty. Unfortunately it also lacks the base education to make it flexible. RNs have a base education that allows them to specialize. An L&D RN would not feel comfortable in the ED unless there was a pregnant woman or some gyn emergency and a neonatal RN would not be thrilled about getting floated to an adult ICU. And, in the nursing world that would not happen without extensive training and orientation. EMS is a specialty and an RN is educated from the beginning they need extra training, education and precepted experience to work specialties. The Paramedic must recognize they are a specialty and it may not easily cross over with just skills or having bragging rights to 60 meds and an unlimited scope of practice to do as they want whenever they want.

As I already stated before, a Radiology Technologist does not claim to be an RN because of an IV nor does an RN with an ultrasound cert claim to be a Radiologist Technologist or whatever license they might go under in that state. Specialities must be recognized as a valuable part of the whole health care team. Going backwards in a hospital is not the answer either since LVNs and most of the professions that were considered to be only "techs" are now gone. The techs that only did EKGs have vanished and those duties have been taken over by other professionals. The LVNs are now primarily found only in LTC facilities and not in an acute hospital. The nursing unions do not even recognize them and they are often with the CNAs and other techs in SEIU. So, it would be a stretch for a hospital to welcome someone with 6 months of training into a hospital with the same professional standing as those with established higher education entry levels. Even the RN is facing the challenges of being the least educated for entry in the hospital as all the other professions raise their standards.

But, the RN does have a decent entry level foundation which allows them to expand into other professions if there is the opportunity. But, as health care and EMS are now in the U.S., why?

ENA and ANA are addressing prehospital issues and are pushing for more states to have their own credentials for RNs in the out of hospital situations such PHRN. These organizations and the BONs of many states do not want an RN working as a lower level provider. They know the lower level license may not relieve them of the responsibility from knowing what they know as RNs. NPs and PAs are also involved in legislative issues to provide more services. Their professionals websites offer a lot of information as do the associations for Public Health and Home Health. These issues are all being discussed and there is new legislature being presented every week. The other associations are also making it about the patient more than having to be concerned what to call an EMT, who does what skill or if the FD is better than AMR. Some of these associations with nursing, PAs and Social Workers also concern themselves with lobbying for more funds for alternative transportation. This can also make those on ambulance services unhappy if EMTs are laid off just like when a service loses a 911 or transport contract.

EMS has just not come together for a common cause to support or even address some of the bigger issues in the U.S. Some services think they may have just invented the wheel but have failed to recognize or give credit to the professions who have been trying to keep those same services available to the people for years and have been under utilized by EMS providers. The nonemergent issues in Public Health or extended care have not been exciting concerns for some in EMS.

I can give an example of this. If a person falls and a public assist is called to help the person up, some in EMS will consider this as a nuisance call. If an RN is called to assist a fallen patient, they must assess "why?" along with necessary paperwork and to take the apppropriate action to see it does not happen again or make it less likely. There is no "let's wait and see if they fall and call again".
 
If an RN is called to assist a fallen patient, they must assess "why?" along with necessary paperwork and to take the apppropriate action to see it does not happen again or make it less likely.

Or they put them back in bed, pretend nothing happened, and walk away.
 
Or they put them back in bed, pretend nothing happened, and walk away.

Or, if the patient complains of chest pain just give them a nitro regardless of what the BP is. Had a call just last week where the DON of all people gave a nitro to a patient w/ a BP of 86/44. Thanks to those heroic efforts the patient was no longer complaining of chest pain...or anything else....or speaking at all for that matter.

Director Of Nursing for that facility requires a masters degree. Just proof that it is possible to be an educated moron.
 
I wasn't trying to make a joke. I just hate to see nurses put on a pedastal like they're perfect. We just had a thread about a nurse placing the blame on someone else and trying to CYA. Sure, most nurses would write a report, try to fix the problem. That's their job. A medic's job is not to figure out why some guy tripped beyond checking them out for medical emergencies that would cause a fall. They're not equipped to go above and beyond. Not all would find it a nuisance, just like not all nurses would look at what problem could be solved.
 
There is more to it

There are alot of aspects that would need to looked at, I am an EMT and a Fire Fighter, I have the training to deal with a messy MVC, a nurse does not. It would open them up for injury. Our Paramedic Programs are rigorous, and teach alot of information, there is also a lot of clinical time that must be completed.
 
Or, if the patient complains of chest pain just give them a nitro regardless of what the BP is. Had a call just last week where the DON of all people gave a nitro to a patient w/ a BP of 86/44. Thanks to those heroic efforts the patient was no longer complaining of chest pain...or anything else....or speaking at all for that matter.

Director Of Nursing for that facility requires a masters degree. Just proof that it is possible to be an educated moron.

Anyone who has worked alongside medics, RN's, and even MD's has plenty of stories about "that guy", who is an exception and not the rule for the profession.
 
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More Over

Nurses taking over EMS would have the potential to make EMS more than just a fast ride to the hospital. You're going against tradition. It will never happen.

Having higher level of care in the back of the rig, I forsee the Golden Hour flying out the window, They will feel it is not as important to get them there because they can handle more and it would cause patient care decrease.
 
forsee the Golden Hour flying out the window,

The Golden Hour has been proven a myth and is still being drilled into students! You honestly expect change?

Edited: I misread your post, forgive me. You just prove my point of going against tradition.
 
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You're a little late on that one... The golden hour has been on its way out for at least a few years now..

Also, there is no reason to be hating on the nurses...as was mentioned earlier, it doesn't add to the conversation and we all have stories about "that one time..."

We can keep it professional right? I love my nurse partners and would work with any of them any day of the week, and I think they feel the same about me and the other medics they work with. Now, if you were to ask them if they would enjoy working on a regular 911 unit instead of critical care or in addition to critical care, the answer would be a resounding no. It doesn't matter what pay rate you offer them, I am fairly certain they have no interest.

To wrap up this whole thread into an idea we all seem to agree on, EMS in America is doing an acceptable job right now, but we need to do better, and we can do better. We owe it to our patients to professionalize, and if we don't increase our education minimum standards, we will be left behind eventually. The days of vocational training are dying out, and eventually they will be no more. A well rounded education makes better providers and improves patient outcomes.
 
You're a little late on that one... The golden hour has been on its way out for at least a few years now..

Also, there is no reason to be hating on the nurses...as was mentioned earlier, it doesn't add to the conversation and we all have stories about "that one time..."

We can keep it professional right? I love my nurse partners and would work with any of them any day of the week, and I think they feel the same about me and the other medics they work with. Now, if you were to ask them if they would enjoy working on a regular 911 unit instead of critical care or in addition to critical care, the answer would be a resounding no. It doesn't matter what pay rate you offer them, I am fairly certain they have no interest.

To wrap up this whole thread into an idea we all seem to agree on, EMS in America is doing an acceptable job right now, but we need to do better, and we can do better. We owe it to our patients to professionalize, and if we don't increase our education minimum standards, we will be left behind eventually. The days of vocational training are dying out, and eventually they will be no more. A well rounded education makes better providers and improves patient outcomes.

I agree with everything you said except the bolded part.
 
Also, there is no reason to be hating on the nurses...

No hatred for nurses, my career goal is actually DNP.

My hatred is more towards the fact that there are good and bad of every profession, but more often than not nurses are put on a pedastal as if because they completed a 2 year or higher degree they can do no wrong, it's not possible to have a bad nurse, while on the flipside EMTs and Medics are automatically assumed to be bad.

Perhaps I was trigger happy and should have saved it for another thread, but I stand by my feelings.
 
Some patients are time critical and some are not; the time period will vary with each patient individually. Those who are older, smaller or more physiologically unstable would have a smaller time period in which to begin definitive treatment if seriously ill or injured than somebody who is young and healthy.

Little old nana with heart failure, two previous heart attacks, COPD and who recently came off chemo is going to tolerate sepsis a hell of a lot less than somebody who is young, fit and no comorbidities.

Ambulance Officers need to recognise when a patient is time critical and treat and transport expediciously, it does not mean run everybody in on red lights because thats what the textbook and 30 years of tradition says to do.
 
Now, a history lesson ....

1969: Miami, Seattle and Los Angeles get "Paramedics"
1971: Melbourne (Australia) launches MICA (mobile intensive care ambulance) and MICOs (mobile intensive care officers)
1973: New Zealand introduces Paramedic staffed mobile life support units (LSU)
1983: Ontario, Canada introduces ALS Paramedics in Oshawa, ON
1990: Paramedic training is introduced in the UK ....

... sad to see the rest of the world started later and has overtaken the US :sad:

We showed everyone else what not to do...eventually we'll catch back up.
 
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