Pittsburgh EMS, FD feud over response times and ‘hostile takeover’

DrParasite

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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Yeah...it has ever been thus...once fire command staff got scent of the ems dollar, it was game on...at least in the tax rich response zones....I remember in San Francisco when it was all you could do to keep the engine company on scene for a peri-arrest patient...chili on the stove or something...now a panhandler farts and it's a full assignment (not really, but...really.)
 
E tank said:
Yeah...it has ever been thus...once fire command staff got scent of the ems dollar, it was game on...at least in the tax rich response zones....I remember in San Francisco when it was all you could do to keep the engine company on scene for a peri-arrest patient...chili on the stove or something...now a panhandler farts and it's a full assignment (not really, but...really.)
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When I worked in Richmond, we parked behind FD to block them in. They had no choice to but to help us…
 
I’m blessed to work in an area of the country where ems transport has been fire based for 40+ years. Do all firemen like being medics? Clearly not.. but we don’t have squabbles like this and I’m glad for it
 
CCCSD said:
When I worked in Richmond, we parked behind FD to block them in. They had no choice to but to help us…
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Ha...SFFD would just drive over someones yard to get out...(not really...but really...)
 
FiremanMike said:
I’m blessed to work in an area of the country where ems transport has been fire based for 40+ years. Do all firemen like being medics? Clearly not.. but we don’t have squabbles like this and I’m glad for it
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Dimes to donuts it was a money thing before that era began and odds are it wasn't pleasant.
 
FiremanMike said:
I’m blessed to work in an area of the country where ems transport has been fire based for 40+ years. Do all firemen like being medics? Clearly not.. but we don’t have squabbles like this and I’m glad for it
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Imagine having a job where you absolutely hate 90% of what you actually do on a day to day basis
 
Where I work, about 95% of EMS is fire-based. They embraced EMS about 30 years ago and haven't looked back. Though, I must say, not all the firefighters enjoy being on the ambulance. They are, however, very aware that's what these departments do the vast majority of the time. They're also coming around to having single-role EMS personnel but they've not been a "thing" for more than a few years now and has only been recently more seriously staffed. At least one of the fire departments is now sending some NP's on some calls during the day to alleviate trips to the ED by certain "high frequency" users of the system...
 
FiremanMike said:
I’m blessed to work in an area of the country where ems transport has been fire based for 40+ years. Do all firemen like being medics? Clearly not.. but we don’t have squabbles like this and I’m glad for it
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If we truly respected one another’s respective public service role, perhaps we would not have such squabbles. If, and only, if…
 
E tank said:
Dimes to donuts it was a money thing before that era began and odds are it wasn't pleasant.
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Pretty sure it wasn’t about that back then, different times, different mindset.. we’re talking the beginnings of EMS. I do believe my area is among the very first in the area, like the beginnings of EMS as a whole..
 
DesertMedic66 said:
Imagine having a job where you absolutely hate 90% of what you actually do on a day to day basis
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Because ems is so deeply imbedded in the fire service in this area, people come on the job with eyes wide open. The ones that truly hate ems are in the minority.

Interestingly, I switched departments about a year ago and we run mutual aid with a third service 911 EMS-only department. I am fairly unimpressed with their clinical knowledge and skills. On the whole, they’re no better or worse than the fire department medics I’ve been working with for over two decades..
 
Private or public, encroaching on someone’s “territory” is never met with open arms. Even when there’s plenty of pie to go around. Pretty dumb if you ask me, but hey, capitalism.

I do wonder how the FD would feel if an EMS agency randomly decided to start fighting fires in their service areas. You know, not all of them, but how hard could it really be?…
 
VentMonkey said:
Private or public, encroaching on someone’s “territory” is never met with open arms. Even when there’s plenty of pie to go around. Pretty dumb if you ask me, but hey, capitalism.

I do wonder how the FD would feel if an EMS agency randomly decided to start fighting fires in their service areas. You know, not all of them, but how hard could it really be?…
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One only has to look at rural metro. When I started rural metro was storming the gates and taking over the world - they had Scottsdale and were going to put public fire departments out of business. They failed

Public safety is not profitable, that’s why they’ve never truly succeeded
 
FiremanMike said:
One only has to look at rural metro. When I started rural metro was storming the gates and taking over the world - they had Scottsdale and were going to put public fire departments out of business. They failed

Public safety is not profitable, that’s why they’ve never truly succeeded
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I was mostly joking and am quite aware of R/M and its woes. I did find an R/M FD while driving through Oregon a few months back.

And right, since public safety is truly not-profitable it’s (to me) astounding that after about half of a century there’s only been a handful reputable EMS agencies. Pittsburgh is, or was, so I thought.

Ironically our county FD is hiring single-roles much like a lot of CA FD’s are beginning to. All this to say what? It’s a band aid on a geyser. A billion medics on scene, vs one, still carries little if any value most calls. I think all of us can agree on this.
 
Where I see FDs hiring single roles, the medics are paid a lot less than the FFs and often with less benefits and few promotional opportunities because it is still all about false fire alarms, hose pulling, fill the boot, and kittens in trees. Hire the single roles so that the real FFs don't have to do EMS **** duty. "Use em up, burn em out, and let em work while we cook up five alarm chili, play xbox, and wax the trucks for the parade."
 
FiremanMike said:
I’m blessed to work in an area of the country where ems transport has been fire based for 40+ years. Do all firemen like being medics? Clearly not.. but we don’t have squabbles like this and I’m glad for it
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I think Fire-based EMS can and does work in smaller departments.... If your FD has fewer than 5 stations, and has as many staffed ambulances as staffed engine companies, with staff rotating from suppression units to transport units, it makes sense to have fire-based EMS.

Pittsburg is NOT a small city; its EMS department does more than just treat and transport patients, and it's done it well for decades. It's not a small city, nor would it be a good candidate for fire based EMS. This is another example of the FD wanting more money to expand their duties, instead of the city allocating more funding to the current EMS system to expand operations.

Many major cities have taken over EMS with big promises, pushed out their independent EMS systems, and ended up not fulfilling any of their promises, but since they destroyed the previous EMS system, they have no options other than to understaff and underfund EMS or outsource to a 3rd party. It's a story that has been repeated all over the US multiple times.
 
Summit said:
Where I see FDs hiring single roles, the medics are paid a lot less than the FFs and often with less benefits and few promotional opportunities because it is still all about false fire alarms, hose pulling, fill the boot, and kittens in trees. Hire the single roles so that the real FFs don't have to do EMS **** duty. "Use em up, burn em out, and let em work while we cook up five alarm chili, play xbox, and wax the trucks for the parade."
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This. Usually the first promotion is off the ambulance.
 
VentMonkey said:
I was mostly joking and am quite aware of R/M and its woes. I did find an R/M FD while driving through Oregon a few months back.

And right, since public safety is truly not-profitable it’s (to me) astounding that after about half of a century there’s only been a handful reputable EMS agencies. Pittsburgh is, or was, so I thought.

Ironically our county FD is hiring single-roles much like a lot of CA FD’s are beginning to. All this to say what? It’s a band aid on a geyser. A billion medics on scene, vs one, still carries little if any value most calls. I think all of us can agree on this.
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So the dept I moved to has a lot of basics and a few medics, perhaps I was spoiled because the medics at my old place were pretty solid (at least on my crew), but I prefer all medics..

As a supervisor, there’s the added dynamic of needing to plan out my medic/basic crew based on strengths and weaknesses..
DrParasite said:
I think Fire-based EMS can and does work in smaller departments.... If your FD has fewer than 5 stations, and has as many staffed ambulances as staffed engine companies, with staff rotating from suppression units to transport units, it makes sense to have fire-based EMS.

Pittsburg is NOT a small city; its EMS department does more than just treat and transport patients, and it's done it well for decades. It's not a small city, nor would it be a good candidate for fire based EMS. This is another example of the FD wanting more money to expand their duties, instead of the city allocating more funding to the current EMS system to expand operations.

Many major cities have taken over EMS with big promises, pushed out their independent EMS systems, and ended up not fulfilling any of their promises, but since they destroyed the previous EMS system, they have no options other than to understaff and underfund EMS or outsource to a 3rd party. It's a story that has been repeated all over the US multiple times.
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as usually happens on these forums, people apply what’s happened in their area and assume that’s the way everywhere. I’m not giving away my anonymity beyond saying that I’m referring to a department that’s one of the top 20-30 in the nation in size and a metro area with robust mutual aid that essentially makes it even bigger.

This area started fire based EMS back when EMS was in its infancy. There was no takeover, no money grab, and the folks on the job today came on knowing full well what they were getting.
 
Perhaps a bit off topic, but i do think more and more paramedicine is largely an individual sport in the sense that the type of provider is less likely a reflection of their service, but instead of their own ethics and beliefs.

These providers are truly outliers in the workforce, like any job.

Certainly, culture is contagious both toxic and positive. Complacency is real regardless of the level of commitment the actual service makes (i.e., how “progressive” they are). Something about leading a horse to water…

Any decent paramedic can make water into wine regardless of the service or system they’re operating in and under.
 
VentMonkey said:
...

Any decent paramedic can make water into wine regardless of the service or system they’re operating in and under.
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I just want to be able to make a living making that wine. If I'm doing 70-80% of the work the "modern fire service" does I want at least equal benefits and pay.
 
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